Share This Page:
The American Civil War
See there you go. As I am no Yankee or their like minds, I have no concearn for the rest of the world. I think a return to Constitutionalism would be just fine and sufficient. Perhaps a limiit on lawyers would be in order and a few indictments would be in order to show for future generations we have no tollerence for people that would destroy our very fabric. We could trade with the rest of the world, just not take sides. We want oil, others want Levi's.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
1 OK - so that would be: self first, self last. What a morality to live by?!?Whitey wrote: 1 I have no concearn for the rest of the world.
2 I think a return to Constitutionalism would be just fine and sufficient.
3 Perhaps a limiit on lawyers would be in order
4 we have no tollerence for people that would destroy our very fabric.
5 We could trade with the rest of the world. We want oil.
2 I despair what your definition of 'Constitutionalism' might be. The UK doesn't have a written constitution. The US does. Arhh shucks but that would be a yankee constitution wouldn't it??
4. I wonder who 'our' are and what your 'very fabric' is?
5. So you want oil. And if the rest of the world doesn't want to sell it to you????????
Sorry, whitey, you're starting to bore the pants of me now. You have no grasp of reality. Your arguments are illogical, ill-thought through and have no precision. Are you studying 'Polemic' in university? Whatever you're studying, I hope there's a module on 'Joined-Up-Thinking' before you finish.
Your preference seems to be for another war with the 'Yankees'. If so, sincerely hope it never happens; More Americans have been killed by Americans than anyone else - you'll remember when. Oh, and by the way, the 'South' would lose again Hands down!
Another war? We didn't want the first one. I don't want another war, not even isolationism of states, just to be free to live by the constitution, where the government answers to the people not the other way. To make our congress responsible again, and our people think before they vote. Right now they vote as if it is nothing more than a gallup opinion poll, and only 51% do vote. If you don't understand me, come live here awhile. Read the promise and then look at what you got.
My family, my city, my state and then my country. If you need help over there and we all decide it is a good idea, okay we'll help, other than that heres your Levi's thanks for the Doc Marten boots, have a good day. Or Marlboros for Bass Ale, whatever we trade.
My family, my city, my state and then my country. If you need help over there and we all decide it is a good idea, okay we'll help, other than that heres your Levi's thanks for the Doc Marten boots, have a good day. Or Marlboros for Bass Ale, whatever we trade.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
Sisyphus and cottage cheese
After reading the posts between you and whitey it seems trying to reason with you and have you get your facts straight is akin to wiping one's arse with cottage cheese. Feels the same, but at least the color changes.
FACTS, not what some ding dong told you happened in America.
The Constitution was not a Yankee invention. Northerners and Southerners contributed to it. A return to the Constitution means exactly that. Go find a copy of it, read it. What the Gentleman from Oklahoma wants and anyone else who has read and studied American history AND has an aversion to socialism wants, is a return to Constitutional government. What whitey is saying, I believe, is the United States is too big and too bloated to survive as it is. Big things are more affected by the Second Law of thermodynamics than little tiny things. Washington D.C., the Leviathan, hasn't a clue as to what happens in the lives of those of us in "flyover country". This nation, like all Empires, will eventually splinter and collapse under its own weight, no matter the form of Government.
What is wrong with not being concerned with the rest of the world? A little isolationist minding one's business never hurt anybody. Whitey gives you facts and you seem to try and twist what he is saying to suit your arguement. A little postmodern relativistic debate tactic.
By the way, those who would be slaves usually end up as slaves.
FACTS, not what some ding dong told you happened in America.
The Constitution was not a Yankee invention. Northerners and Southerners contributed to it. A return to the Constitution means exactly that. Go find a copy of it, read it. What the Gentleman from Oklahoma wants and anyone else who has read and studied American history AND has an aversion to socialism wants, is a return to Constitutional government. What whitey is saying, I believe, is the United States is too big and too bloated to survive as it is. Big things are more affected by the Second Law of thermodynamics than little tiny things. Washington D.C., the Leviathan, hasn't a clue as to what happens in the lives of those of us in "flyover country". This nation, like all Empires, will eventually splinter and collapse under its own weight, no matter the form of Government.
What is wrong with not being concerned with the rest of the world? A little isolationist minding one's business never hurt anybody. Whitey gives you facts and you seem to try and twist what he is saying to suit your arguement. A little postmodern relativistic debate tactic.
By the way, those who would be slaves usually end up as slaves.
life is hard, its harder if you're stupid.
He is indulging in an argument, he is disagreeing with Whitey and to a certain extent I can see why. Please don't tell me this is a bad thing to do or else you will be proving his point. It is called dissent and it is not a crime or even a moralistically bad thing to do. In many ways its the only thing keeping people sane in a world that looks increasingly like the USA is driving us onward and upward to something pretty terrible. I don't agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment but I do agree with parts of it.What is wrong with not being concerned with the rest of the world? A little isolationist minding one's business never hurt anybody. Whitey gives you facts and you seem to try and twist what he is saying to suit your arguement. A little postmodern relativistic debate tactic.
Whitey you are coming across like a manic street preacher and I don't mean the band I mean what the band was named after. You can find them on corners in most Welsh towns on Saturday mornings in my experience and I for one avoid them like the plague. They incite all sorts of nasty things in the name of all that is good and all I can help thinking is with do gooders like that who need war mongers?
I don't like political correctness but I do like tolerance. Be it racial, religious, political or anything else you care to name. There are things I WILL fight for but if the USA thinks everybody will follow them blindly they are going to loose a lot of friends.
As for comunism? Blimey I can hardly spell it but what I do know is this, Russia had nothing to do with communism, Joe Stalin did not instill it he instilled Stalinism which was at least as bad as Nazism but it wasn't communism, its been given a bad name and what you describe so anachronistically as communism is in fact despotism. If you care to read the real meaning you might find it has more to do with the US constitution than you would dare to beleive.
And as for the constitution, they are a double edged sword, constitutions are pretty much written in stone and the very idea of changing them to suit modern times brings people out in a cold sweat. We have the law, the law can be changed as and when it needs to be and within the law you will find a constitution every bit as robust and far reaching as you could ever dream of. Yes it is full of loopholes but so is a constitution but you can plug legal loopholes you cannot plug constitutional loopholes anywhere near as easily.
Swift and bold.
Re: Sisyphus and cottage cheese
nbnbforrest wrote:
1 the United States is too big and too bloated to survive as it is.
2 What is wrong with not being concerned with the rest of the world?
3 By the way, those who would be slaves usually end up as slaves.
It must be that Southern air you're breathing.
1 Got to agree with you there.
2 If you even have to ask the question it shows a quite incredible
degree of arrogant egoism that I'm [almost] surprised you could even
suggest it on a 'public' forum.
3 And who exactly, 'would be slaves'? Not anyone who had a choice in
the matter. Even the very notion in a modern society is
obscene.
Are they actually teaching/preaching this sort of stuffin the schools in the Southern States. I can't actually believe most
people down there subscribe to this sort of stuff. On the one hand
you're suggesting some people should be slaves: on the other whitey
argues the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery and it was
'essentially over'.
You really can't have it both ways if you want to be taken seriously.
If you're struggling as to what to ask for as a Christmas
present, you might ask someone for an unusually large dose of
common sense.
Slaves, well who are they you ask? Just about all of us. Governments answer to free men, slaves answer to government. So basically unless you have some special talent or extremely immense amount of wealth we are all slaves. America was once a free country, it had rights recognized as coming from God rather than allowed by the state. In 1865 Lincoln consolidated the Government, expanded it and the corporation lobbies gained enough power to keep us in a perpetual state of war ever since. Our people have become sad, possibly the sorriest examples of humanity.
They have a sense of entitlement, and not to freedom, but to a free living.
The slave issue to most Southern people is silly because of sharecropping, slavery continued well into the industrial revolution by another name.
We have lost our States rights, the due process of law, freedom of speech in the sense you can now be punnished for saying just as severely as doing, we are losing our right to bear arms, the same right that ensures the others. And our people have lost their motivation under the "Give the man a fish" ideology. Not all men are created equal. Many men are smarter and a few are dumber than me, some richer some poorer, and some physically able to twist a truck into a unicycle and some who can't carry their own weight. We are only intended to be equal under God and the law when accused of a crime. Socialism Fabian style has taken the UK, and is at work here and has been for sometime. Think about it, Americans get poorer and the CEO's get richer, Americans get more rules, the rich get more freedom, same as the Communist's. The workers throw their money in a pot and the state redistributes, isn't what I care for. Screw the lazy and stupid. And as for being a slave deserving slavery, look if you choose to live as a slave without a fight then you deserve it. I will resist, fight and preach until the Constitution is restored. Our Constitution is in stone and is very relevent to today, it doesn't need tinkering with.
We aren't getting freer, we are getting confined. If you like and condone the course the US is on perhaps you will change your mind when the profiteers seek to regulate and control you. Laugh, but if we keep going this way, we will fight the EU, if you are a member, get ready to start celebrating Thanksgiving, July 4th and Mega Malls.
They have a sense of entitlement, and not to freedom, but to a free living.
The slave issue to most Southern people is silly because of sharecropping, slavery continued well into the industrial revolution by another name.
We have lost our States rights, the due process of law, freedom of speech in the sense you can now be punnished for saying just as severely as doing, we are losing our right to bear arms, the same right that ensures the others. And our people have lost their motivation under the "Give the man a fish" ideology. Not all men are created equal. Many men are smarter and a few are dumber than me, some richer some poorer, and some physically able to twist a truck into a unicycle and some who can't carry their own weight. We are only intended to be equal under God and the law when accused of a crime. Socialism Fabian style has taken the UK, and is at work here and has been for sometime. Think about it, Americans get poorer and the CEO's get richer, Americans get more rules, the rich get more freedom, same as the Communist's. The workers throw their money in a pot and the state redistributes, isn't what I care for. Screw the lazy and stupid. And as for being a slave deserving slavery, look if you choose to live as a slave without a fight then you deserve it. I will resist, fight and preach until the Constitution is restored. Our Constitution is in stone and is very relevent to today, it doesn't need tinkering with.
We aren't getting freer, we are getting confined. If you like and condone the course the US is on perhaps you will change your mind when the profiteers seek to regulate and control you. Laugh, but if we keep going this way, we will fight the EU, if you are a member, get ready to start celebrating Thanksgiving, July 4th and Mega Malls.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
Sisyphus
Foul ball, You can't answer a point by dismissing its relevance or its import in your particular world view.
I still suggest that there is great deal of virtue in minding one's own buisiness on a national and personal level as well. Most of people are struck with the idea that we, whoever we is, need to go and 'help' all sorts of down and outers and even degeneerates of one type or another. sometimes in life people and nations get what they deserve and by rescuing them we only reinforce the poor decisions and bad habits that brought the misery in the first place. We rant a great deal about the damnyankees (one word). This is an example, if the North had left the South alone on the slavery issue, the South would have worked it out. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people died because one government couldn't do that.
To the slavery issue. You seem to equate all forms of slavery with poor old pickaninnies toiling away under the hot Georgia sun. There are many forms of slavery my friend. aristotle would have considered you unarmed Brits as slaves and all of us as slaves for paying taxes. What makes your view of the world better than anyone else's. Sorry my Island cousin, forgive we poor unwashed Southerners for loving freedom more than chains. In MHO, a man who would willingly be the slave of another is getting what he deserves. It's a freedom thing.
I still suggest that there is great deal of virtue in minding one's own buisiness on a national and personal level as well. Most of people are struck with the idea that we, whoever we is, need to go and 'help' all sorts of down and outers and even degeneerates of one type or another. sometimes in life people and nations get what they deserve and by rescuing them we only reinforce the poor decisions and bad habits that brought the misery in the first place. We rant a great deal about the damnyankees (one word). This is an example, if the North had left the South alone on the slavery issue, the South would have worked it out. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people died because one government couldn't do that.
To the slavery issue. You seem to equate all forms of slavery with poor old pickaninnies toiling away under the hot Georgia sun. There are many forms of slavery my friend. aristotle would have considered you unarmed Brits as slaves and all of us as slaves for paying taxes. What makes your view of the world better than anyone else's. Sorry my Island cousin, forgive we poor unwashed Southerners for loving freedom more than chains. In MHO, a man who would willingly be the slave of another is getting what he deserves. It's a freedom thing.
life is hard, its harder if you're stupid.
Tazzers and Sisyphus
Sorry for the double post.
Taz, I do feel sorry for the rest of the world if they are becoming like the U.S. Big governments covering half the globe are soon to be an anachronism. Soon being relative.
Sisyphus. The air in Dixie is just fine. No one is taught that slavery is a good thing. It is a terrible thing. So terrible that men should wish to die rather than submit to it.
Taz, I do feel sorry for the rest of the world if they are becoming like the U.S. Big governments covering half the globe are soon to be an anachronism. Soon being relative.
Sisyphus. The air in Dixie is just fine. No one is taught that slavery is a good thing. It is a terrible thing. So terrible that men should wish to die rather than submit to it.
life is hard, its harder if you're stupid.
Re: Sisyphus
nbnbforrest wrote:aristotle would have considered you unarmed Brits as slaves and all of us as slaves for paying taxes.
Glad you mentioned Aristotle. Like him you might want to try rhetoric instead of sophistry. If you need a basis in rhetoric look up the treatise he wrote in 4 B.C. which is recognized as never having been surpassed.
Your comment that men should rather die than submit to slavery would only be spoken by a man who is unlikely to become a slave. You completely underestimate the human instinct for self-preservation. There are countless examples throughout history where men and women have endured unthinkable suffering just in the hope of staying alive.
As the Germans rolled through Europe in the early years of WWII they were unstoppable. It was inevitable that Poland, for example, would fall. And did. So on your definition all the Poles should have killed themselves once they were conquered by the Germans.
Have you and whitey ever thought of setting up a 'Sophists Society'? Your arguments in this debate could become textbook classics.
They are rambling, incoherent, and redefine commonly understood words and meanings [such as slavery] to suit your argument.
In the post prior to yours whitey categorically states we are all slaves. In your post you firmly state men should wish to die rather than submit to it. So, by definition, both of you are currently wishing for death then? But, here we have another classic Sophist's tactic: whitey also says men shouldn't choose to live as slaves without fighting. So he tries [probably without realizing it] to give you/him a let out. He doesn't have to die if he's prepared to fight. A classic case of wanting it both ways or, at best, ends up arguing against the case you are trying to make.
And another oxymoron in your argument: a man who chooses slavery. Never in human history has a man chosen to be a slave. You might cite the fact that after Emancipation some African Americans [negroes, if you like] chose to stay as 'slaves' on the plantations. Could it have anything to do with the fact that they had no 'choice' apart from stay and work or leave and die of starvation: no homes; no food; no clothing..................
Finally, I do agree in large part with whitey's comments about CEOs getting richer and the rest of us poorer. Which is why I think any future 'Empire' will be an empire of global corporations. The much-maligned anarchists who turn up at the world trade meetings and cause havoc are about the only ones who are actually trying to do anything about it. So, guys, re the fight against slavery: what exactly are you actually doing about it apart from putting poorly argued and poorly supported comments on this forum? Not thinking of joining the next demo at the next WTO meeting by any chance??[/i]
Sisyphus
I see, you won't answer questions that lead to answers which might help a couple of dumbasses like me and Whitey. Instead, you attack our intelligence. Maybe someday we will reach your level of Sophistication and Mastery of Rhetoric.
My position is quite simple. As I stated earlier, there are varying degrees if you will, of slavery. Earlier in your one of your posts you equated all slavery with the institutional plantation slavery the South practiced. I pointed out to you that there were different degrees and types of slavery. You ignored this point in the discussion and instead used quotes from two differnt individuals to make some egghead point that we aren't as intelligent as you and that for some reason our arguements aren't worth an honest reply. I have also noticed that you state an opinion of yours, which I will touch upon in a moment, treat it as an undisputable fact without the supporting logic, and build an arguement on it, Too bad you cannot lace your keen intellect and acerbic wit with a bit of humility.
This forum started with a discussion about Britain not helping the CSA during the war of Northern Agression. Somehow, as all discussions of the subject seem to do, it turned to the issue of slavery. A sad thing since slavery was a wedge issue(read non-issue) used by politicians on both sides in that conflict to fan the flames of war.
The opinion you present as fact: I disagree with you that I have no chance of becoming a slave. Who knows what will happen in ten or twenty years. We here certainly didn't expect anyone to fly Airplanes into buildings September tenth a few years ago. History is a funny thing. I still believe that anyone who allows himself to be put into chains without a fight to the death deserves to be a slave, if that's what those chains mean. Your example of the Poles was a poor one. Hitler was not coming to enslave the Poles, but to conquer territory. Big difference.
You are wrong that people have never chosen in a historical context to become slaves. Poor Europeans routinely allowed themselves to become indentured servants in exchange for a trip to the Colonies. The conditions were equal to the chattel slavery experienced by Africans. This is documented fact.
There is a difference between an opinion and a definition.
I actually wrote a short story about a global supercorporation buying the debt of the U.S. and taking over the functions of Government. It seems we agree on certain things. As I am new to this board, I hope our conversations do not turn too nasty. I certainly hope that in the future you will forgive my lack of the education which you have so graciously reminded me you posess. I also hope that you will forbear that self same lack of education and continue to grace me with the opportunity for continued discussion.
My position is quite simple. As I stated earlier, there are varying degrees if you will, of slavery. Earlier in your one of your posts you equated all slavery with the institutional plantation slavery the South practiced. I pointed out to you that there were different degrees and types of slavery. You ignored this point in the discussion and instead used quotes from two differnt individuals to make some egghead point that we aren't as intelligent as you and that for some reason our arguements aren't worth an honest reply. I have also noticed that you state an opinion of yours, which I will touch upon in a moment, treat it as an undisputable fact without the supporting logic, and build an arguement on it, Too bad you cannot lace your keen intellect and acerbic wit with a bit of humility.
This forum started with a discussion about Britain not helping the CSA during the war of Northern Agression. Somehow, as all discussions of the subject seem to do, it turned to the issue of slavery. A sad thing since slavery was a wedge issue(read non-issue) used by politicians on both sides in that conflict to fan the flames of war.
The opinion you present as fact: I disagree with you that I have no chance of becoming a slave. Who knows what will happen in ten or twenty years. We here certainly didn't expect anyone to fly Airplanes into buildings September tenth a few years ago. History is a funny thing. I still believe that anyone who allows himself to be put into chains without a fight to the death deserves to be a slave, if that's what those chains mean. Your example of the Poles was a poor one. Hitler was not coming to enslave the Poles, but to conquer territory. Big difference.
You are wrong that people have never chosen in a historical context to become slaves. Poor Europeans routinely allowed themselves to become indentured servants in exchange for a trip to the Colonies. The conditions were equal to the chattel slavery experienced by Africans. This is documented fact.
There is a difference between an opinion and a definition.
I actually wrote a short story about a global supercorporation buying the debt of the U.S. and taking over the functions of Government. It seems we agree on certain things. As I am new to this board, I hope our conversations do not turn too nasty. I certainly hope that in the future you will forgive my lack of the education which you have so graciously reminded me you posess. I also hope that you will forbear that self same lack of education and continue to grace me with the opportunity for continued discussion.
life is hard, its harder if you're stupid.
Philisophical. Nbforrest, you said it. We know what our families fought for, we were told by our elders why we fought and what America would turn into. They sure got the future/present right, maybe they were right about the past? The fact is the US has never fought to free anyone, if we freed someone and it made us look good, bonus, but we fight for capital. Ask him about what the Lend to Russia Lease to Britian act did to the UK economy. We liked pounds better than Marks or they'd be celebrating Octoberfest.
Sisyphus would have made a fine Yankee, one from Maine especially!
He's a good guy though mostly, since I've been here this is the only big disagreement I've had with him. He'd have to be from here to understand the whole deal, and not everyone here does anyway.
Sisyphus would have made a fine Yankee, one from Maine especially!
He's a good guy though mostly, since I've been here this is the only big disagreement I've had with him. He'd have to be from here to understand the whole deal, and not everyone here does anyway.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
Whitey, my niggggaaaahhh
I don't understand the snooty attitude. This is a forum for military guys right? If I had known my "rhetoric" was going to be graded, I would have spent my time perusing the Hun looking for Paris Hilton pics while helping J. Beam and company show a profit this quarter.
life is hard, its harder if you're stupid.
As far as I can tell the North only released the slaves when it became an yet to be untapped supply of man power. And even then by freeing the slaves it was mostly used as manual labour. There were exceptions of course such as the 54th Regiment of the Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry. I agree the American Civil War had nothing to do about the slaves.
If a man has nothing he is willing to die for then he isn't fit to live.
-
Frank S.
- Guest
Re: Sisyphus
I did. And others did too. And the reason is Marseilles 1994. I'll expand on that later if need be, although I understand this is really a minor point in your argument.nbforrest wrote: We here certainly didn't expect anyone to fly Airplanes into buildings September tenth a few years ago. History is a funny thing.
I will also go on a limb and state (after reading Sisyphus' posts over the last few months) that he is very far from snooty and aristocratic: his posts are well reasoned arguments or counter-arguments, which makes this thread interesting. Please don't mistake this as a defense of his position, as he doesn't need anyone to defend it. I happen to disagree with some of what Sisyphus writes, but that's what I like about this forum: differing views without vitriol.
