WW II thoughts.

[Snib]

With the passing of D-Day, thoughts regarding WWII have been much in mind.

One aspect that seems to have been ignored is the bravery of Britain, in declaring war on Germany, (Hitler didn't really want to fight us) when we weren't sure we could win.

If we hadn't done this, it is likely that most of Europe and Asia would have quickly been under Nazi control.

Should America be seen in such a positive light? They were willing to risk a Nazi domination that would have made that of the USSR look tame and small.

Certainly the allies couldn't have won without them. But twice they waited for Europe to punch itself out in world wars. Getting rich in the process. Britain stood alone against the Nazis and could have easily fallen (operation Sea Lion etc).

Without meaning to degrade the bravery of ANY of the troops involved in the liberation of Europe perhaps a re-appraisal of merit is needed with regard to the motivation of the US administrations involved.

[Spannerman]

Can we just get things in the right perspective, everyone did their duty no matter where they came from, what Armed Force from whatever country they came from, whatever their creed or colour of their skin, in the hour of need they were there.

I really do not think this is the place to denigrate anyone, my father in law was a young man at the time he worked in a munitions factory as a turner/fitter making brass shell cases for 12 hours a day 6 days a week, after his shift he spent hours on duty in the Home Guard as a Captain. Those days were bloody hard with little or no reward apart from a measly weekly pay packet and you and your families lives.

I was but a small child in 1944 but I can remember shouting to the Yanks on the convoys 'Got any Gum Chum?' There was always something that they would throw from their trucks, this was an impoverished nation at the time, those same guys might even be buried in France to this day for all I know.

This is a very emotive subject, you can argue and discuss as much as you like whether the Brits or the Yanks should be in Iraq but WWII was a different ball game, PLEASE do not let us forget the sacrifices that ALL who gave their ALL for 6 years, no matter who they were or where they came from.

[Snib]

Spannerman,

Though I perhaps didn't take enough time to explain it in my previous post, I feel the same about the duty done by all the soldiers involved in the conflicts

However, the gist of my post was an invitation to examine more closely the motives of the US ADMINISTRATIONS involved with both world wars, especially WW II.

Though they stepped in at a necessary time I remain cynical about why they left it so late. If Britain had fallen then who would have been left to stop the Nazis occupying Europe, Asia and Africa?

It is my contention that the US saw a chance to let 4 of the biggest economies on the planet bankrupt themselves and then deliver a knockout punch whilst filling the power vacuum. They were willing to take a calculated risk regarding Naziism and it paid off handsomely.

Lastly, let me reiterate that this is a criticism of US isolationism and not of
ANY of the soldiers involved.

Any thoughts anyone?

[Spannerman]

I think we all know where you are coming from Snib, if you wish to start WWIII here then fine, I will join in, but expect some 'incoming'. I have my views on the current US Administrations policies, that is a political debate, often delved in on other threads.

WWI and WWII, both wars were not started by the U.S. of A. they could be regarded as being innocent bystanders not wanting to embroil themselves in any conflict. It is probable that if Japan had not attacked Pearl Harbo(u)r in 1942 that they might not have got involved in WWII, it is conjecture, like 'Hitler didn't really want to fight us [the Brits]' (where the hell did this chestnut come from?)

You give us your views Snib and let us see what your ideaology is all about, can you expand on some of the theories you have already expounded, please.

[Mrs. Frank S.]

"American commitment to fighting the war if necessary solidified nearly a year and a half before Pearl Harbor, and American military actions in the fall of 1941 constituted undeclared warfare. Only Hiltler's unwillingness to provoke formal American opposition kept the U.S. out of the war on paper."

I found that quote in an interesting paper written by Bear F. Braumoeller at Harvard University. It's called The Myth of American Isolationism


The entire article can be read here. It's PDF and 35 pages long, but a good read.

http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/papers/579 ... USIsol.pdf

[Frank S.]

Just an opinion here, but I think it ought to be considered that at the end of WWI, all the way to the 1930s, there were good reasons for the US having cold feet about getting involved in another major conflict overseas.

The Spanish flu wiped out close to 700.000 military personnel and cut a deadly swath through the US as sick soldiers returned in 1918.
This was devastating.
Then there was agricultural catastrophy (the "dustbowl") which forced thousands to move West with basically the clothes on their backs (Steinbeck's "the grapes of wrath" was inspired by it). The aftershocks of this were felt for decades, with farming families uprooted from desolate lands, who became a sort of nomads. Never being allowed to settle anywhere for long.
And of course, there was the stock market crash of '29.
In light of all this I personally find it remarkable that the US bounced back and developped the ability to engage the Japanese and Nazis in WWII.

[Tab]

Frank, I think the reason that America was in a good postion to take there place fighting the in WW2 was the ammount of money the Britain poured into the America to buy weapons. No I am not complaining about this for with out them we would have been up the creek with out a paddle. Before the outbreak of WW2 Brtain or British people owned about 60% of all American Industry, now that was all sold of cheap to pay for the war materials and NO British person was allowed to own or posses any American Money or stocks or shares in American Companies, as all that had to go to pay towards servicing the purchase of war goods. We are today still paying America for the those goods we had during the war. America was the only country in WORLD to show a profit at the end of WW2. We did what we had to do to fight and win that war, I have no complaints.

[Frank S.]

Frank, I think the reason that America was in a good postion to take there place fighting the in WW2 was the ammount of money the Britain poured into the America to buy weapons. [...]Before the outbreak of WW2 Brtain or British people owned about 60% of all American Industry, now that was all sold of cheap to pay for the war materials and NO British person was allowed to own or posses any American Money or stocks or shares in American Companies, as all that had to go to pay towards servicing the purchase of war goods.

Interesting to say the least. Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of it.

Cheers!

[lew]

it is conjecture, like 'Hitler didn't really want to fight us [the Brits]' (where the hell did this chestnut come from?)

Snib are you talking about hitler wanting the nazis and the British to be allies? I thought that was a urban myth.

Can someone in the know expand on this please.


lew

[Spannerman]

Snib are you talking about hitler wanting the nazis and the British to be allies? I thought that was a urban myth.
lew

If members of the Royal Family, the UK Government and the rest of Hitlers regime were negotiating a treaty in the 1930's you are unlikely to hear about this until the UK Governments 75 or even 100 year rule on releasing documents to the public archives is realised. It is all pure speculation until those records are released.

Re the comments from Tab on the US/UK Lend/Lease Agreement of WWII, yes we will be paying for a long time to come, with interest, this is the 'special friendship' on offer between the two nations, but of course if it were Mexico or Brazil in the UK's position then that Third World debt would be rescinded.

However, at the end of the day, I would like to see us pay off those debts as when all our dues are repaid we owe no one nothing (apart from the IMF!)

[Tab]

It is well known then and now the former Prince Of Wales [Edward] and Mrs Simpson had strong German leanings and got on well with Hitler.
Also Lord Belshia of the Beacon fame, wanted to make a peace with Hitler but was blocked by Churchill as soon as he came to power. there has never been any thing hidden about this, you just need to read a bit more.

[Spannerman]

Also Lord Belshia of the Beacon fame.........you just need to read a bit more.

Lord Belshia or are you referring to the correct spelling of Lord Hore-Belisha


Your call Tab!

[Seven]

Snib are you talking about hitler wanting the nazis and the British to be allies? I thought that was a urban myth

The thing is, Hitler did not want to be allies with Britain but he did not want to fight them either. Britain appeased Hitler from 1936 (the Rheinland invasion) until the summer of 1939. Then all of a sudden Britain and France turned around and threatened to declare war if Hitler invaded Poland. Hitler, by that time, had boasted throughout the world that Poland (or at least parts of it) belonged to Germany, and that he could rightfully take it. Hitler did not expect this sudden turn around, and wasn't really interested in fighting Britain until then. I'm not saying Britain and France caused WW2 but these sort of politics certainly didn't help. After the invasion of France, Hitler ordered the Panzer divisions to stop close to Dunkirk, to allow the British to escape (this is disputed, but sounds plausible) and negotiate peace with them. Read Lidell-Hart's "History of the Second World War", which deals with these matters.

[Snib]

Neither history nor politics are my subjects but in my GCSEs I remember reading extracts (from mein kampf perhaps) to the effect that Hitler was an Anglophile and regarded the British as fellow Aryans.

In the struggle for colonies and later, expansion of Germany, he envisaged two great European powers. That of Britain being based around naval power, and that of Germany, more land based. Indeed he was said to be saddened when Britain declared war.

Personally however, I feel that the monsterous third reich would never have been satisfied with anything other than total domination.

I understand the sense of loyalty to the US but perhaps my point could be better illustrated by saying that our gratitude should be directed towards the people who fought against the Axis and not towards the country or its government or its ideals.

Britain spent two years fighting alone against Nazi Germany. It is widely regarded that if Hitler had listened to his generals and gone ahead with operation Sea Lion, Britain would have fallen. Why he did not is still puzzled over.

In light of this I would state two things:

i) The USA (as a country, not its individuals) was irresponsible in not joining the war sooner. Excuses of isolationism do not, to me, hold up because as I stated earlier if the thread: if Britain had fallen the USA would have been faced with an extremely aggressive and efficient Empire spanning Europe, Asia and Africa, making that of the later USSR look tame.

ii) The USA was cynical in its isolationism. Taking a calculated gamble to get rich. It paid off. They would still have been rich if Britain fell. The consequences for the rest of the world would have been dire.

Talk of it being Europe's problem is missing the point. When you have a dictator who tries to wipe out 6 million people because of their genes/religion it is the worlds problem. Geography becomes largely irrelevant unless you deal in the harshest realpolitik......which, unfortunately, I believe the US does.

A uni friend of mine did his dissertation on trade sanctions. Who here knew that when the UK developed Harrier Jump Jet technology in the 70's the USA asked to share it? Britain realised it had something a bit special and said 'no thanks'. The USA hinted that it may be detrimental to UK trade not to. Trade Sanctions.....

Unfortunately this arrogance has spreads downwards. Who remembers the episode of friends when the father of the Gellers says to the rude English father of his fiancee

'If it wasn't for us you'd all be speaking German'

Perhaps true but, disturbingly, the audience went wild. How can you expect anything other than blind nationalism in the masses from a nation that persuades (are 5 year olds ever persuaded? forced perhaps.) its children from the age of 5 to pledge allegance to the flag every day. Repeating a type of mantra that they would find disturbing if it were followed in other countries.

It is my contention that if Britain hadn't had the courage to stand up to the Nazis in a fight it wasn't really sure it could win, we would soon have seen a Nazi Empire to dominate the world. And if that had happened (taking into account that it was only British science, gifted to the US, that gave them the first atom bomb) America could well have been speaking German too. With the knowledge that they could have stopped it.

[Wholley]

Frank.
You want to answer snib or shall I?
I'm headed out right now but I'll be fuming all day.
Makes me wonder what bollox these kids are taught.
Wholley.