Sincere Question

[Kanadiana]

Hi everyone.

As a survivor of many things, including life threatening
violent assaults on me, ptsd became an issue in my life.
Complex category.

As a civie facing off with the civvie world, I've been on
the receiving end of a lot of negative and defeating attitudes
about the validity of ptsd, and/or about the ptsd-er sufferers
for having this problem to begin with. This problem is more
acknowledged and addressed in the military sphere, due to,
I suspect, a lot of feisty people making a noise and forcing it
to peoples attention, and demanding the help be available.

2004. Here we are now. I know that 9-11 helped to educate
the general public, and military types, but tell me ....

CURRENTLY ... is there a lot of denial or disbelief/disdain about
ptsd WITHIN the military community?

HOW do you all respond to that?

Sincerely interested in hearing your feedback on this.

I get military types in my own little forum and I would like a
better understanding of how they are "generally received
within their own community"

(this ptsd forum is obviously ptsd friendly )

I do whatever I can, in my own small way, to help civvies,
or anyone really, to understand a little better. the better
everyonme understand, then the more supportive and
helpful a society we'l have ... in general.
I'll DRINK TO THAT!

thanks... K

[spike]

Yes , I think that more people are becoming aware of PTSD now in the UK. It has not gone unnoticed that a high percentage of 'rough sleepers' on the UK's streets are ex-forces too. Totally out of proportion to their numbers in the wider community. Now why is that ?

I still think that the term 'shell shock' has manifested in our community, part of it due to the writings of the 'War Poets' , Owen, Sassoon and Brooke. This is/was, a central part of the GCSE exams by all students in Britain.

[Sticky Blue]

From my experience potential PTSD within the 'Serving' military is dealt with by the medical services very quickly. By potential I mean after the event and not before the symptoms begin to develop. This is a fairly new idea and method of operating.
Trauma / stress management teams visited those who had been injured or involved in the worse incidents fairly quickly and for those who weren't visited the teams should have visited or be visiting the units. The emphasis, as I see it, is on prevention, rather than cure. Get them talking and get it all out in the open. PTSD in the military can be attributed to a specific period in time, a conflict and operational dates or an incident. The critical time is getting to those likely to be affected as soon after the incident as possible.
In the military we have the medical service to deal with any case whilst in service. The problem is that many cases do not manifest until people have left the service and then they are amongst the wolves and have to fight for places within the civilian medical service and it can be a lottery on what type of treatment they get and the quality of the treatment.

[Kanadiana]

Thanks STICKS,

It sounds like you guys handle things in the UK much
like they do in Canada ... I'll have to find out moretho, to
be sure.

FYI and in case some of you hadn't
considered these other options of accessing
help.

I don't know what the UK or the USA setup and
response is to victims of violence/crime/accident etc
BUT ... here In Canada, I learned that I'm
eligible, AS A VICTIM, to their help and services. This
includes, I believe, seeking medical and professional
help of my own choosing and having that covered for me.

One situiation I'd have to press charges in a situation
long past its time for that, and no witnesses. The other
there is actually a police report altho I refused help,
examination, and pressing charges ...
(I buried the experience within a week...stuff it.
Just wanted to forget it. I was 19 ) BUT because the
police attended my 911 call, there IS a report, which would
still qualify me for help IF I chose to ask. EVEN at the ripe old
age of soon to be 50

We all know that experiencing an accident or being
a victim of violence or crime/disaster, can create and/OR
flare up PTSD reactions. Emergency services, Victims
Services, are worth looking into for medical and money
help with costs.

If some military types are no longer members,
therefore no longer eligible for help/coverage,
then MAYBE that help can be got at through these
other avenues. They also tend to have lists of
people who specialize ... say in PTSD.

CAPITOLIZE on ANYTHING that can get you at the right
help and treatments. Its like it doesn't matter which avenue
you use to get to the help ... the help is the point.

If you're a vet and need ptsd help and the only
way to get at it is through being a victim of a crime ... well
hey... it works Ues it.

Thats my 2 cents worth...

hey ... it's -17 celcius in my little
SE corner of BC ... nippy.

[BenChug]

Here in Canada we get sent on what is unaffectionatly known as the 'Crazy train' a few hours north of eddy.

Terrible place to go its quite depressing in there.

[Artist]

Once spent 3 months on a "Basket Weaving" course at Haslar.

Totally screwed up to put it mildly. But it helped a heck of a lot.
Still have the odd off day even now but to be honest mates sus out when someone is not his normal self and I really appreciate the lads and lasses on the forum who dont hesitate to PM me when they think I'm not all here.

Mike, Sunman, Loz to name but a few, Thanks oppos, heartfelt thanks.

This week just gone met up with our Yorkie and felt a whole lot better after seeing the loon.

It's what I like about the forum, lots have been through it and will drop everything to help another oppo.

Artist

[harry hackedoff]

the dubious pleasure of Mr. Hackedoff's company

Dubious?
The pleasure was all mine, my dear Can`t think of that many occasions I`ve been kissed on both cheeks by a Jock, covered in blood and snot, and enjoyed the experiance

Artist, did you notice the eyes, mate?
The eyes and the laugh
And the scary way she says" are ye no wantin` a naice cuppa tea an a wee cake there, hen?" as she sharpens the cleaver, whenever you try and leave.
I still can`t walk past a butcher`s without crossing over

[harry hackedoff]

Love you longtime, number one san. You likey sackey fackey big boy?
Haven`t a clue what that means, but the young girl at our local take away is always saying it to me.
Perhaps it`s about Chinese New Year?
Nee Hamma, tai chin, ow for all you Chokies out there.Gar leow, now cheow fam, easy on the oyster sauce there you fat bastard(Liverpool`s Nelson St was the biggest Chinese community outside of Honkers, by the way, and many`s the time I`ve had a decent Chinese on me way home )

Not hiding Lobster, just busy mwa mwa
See, I didn`t even say "Shining" that time
I`m afraid. I`m very afraid
She knows my address.
She knows what I look like
Maybe if Mrs H spread a story about" Dingos Stole My Aitch".....?

Naw, it`d never work

[Artist]

Harry

All I know is that Loz and Hops still aint sussed out the little camera hidden in the chester piccy! Thinking about getting it a web site for all to view the ups and downs of life at the Hoppys.

It's the dogs I feel sorry for mind.

Artist

[Big Boys Rules]

Our trade brought in CISD (Critical Incident Stress De-Briefing)
The people nominated to carry this out were soldiers within the chain of command. It was explained to us that if we did not undertake CISD then we would not be able to claim, but as long as we went into room we could leave at any time and that would count. (touchy feely way of saying it was ok if it was too painful I guess)
I think had it have had any effort put into it, it could have been a very good tool, however it seems to have died a death and there was never more than lip service paid to it anyway.
Our trade moves as individuals, I think we miss the benefits of Unit moves, they can talk to people who have shared their time on tour.
We badly need someone to have a look at us when we comeback, all my friends have psychological holes shot in them somewhere, unfortunately so many have been making do for so long there is an environment of "get on with it"
If anything, lower down the food chain, asking for help is seen as professional and a sign of strength... the officers are slaughtering us for it.
Heads on sticks is all I can say.
Hope that helps
Good site by the way, will read through it in time.
Thankyou.
Troll

[Kanadiana]

Thanks all ... geez, didI ever tell you guys and gals yore all nuts? I love it! Feel rightat homemates

I think the PEER thing is SO important. "When it's not provided, then create it", is the only answer I know for
a lack of help and support.

I know the military experience is very unique and a strong
"together we stand, divided we fall" amongst peers can mean the difference between going down for the last time, and getting up on our wobbly legs, holding hands, and sharing what we know, zig-zgagging together. You catch mewhen I zig, I'll catch you when I zag ... between all of us, we shall overcomes, and all that jazz?

Together is also a powerful pressure on those who can, to PROVIDE?

I lovs your guys and gals... :p

[martin1001]

After several tours and most predominantly the first tour to Bosnia PTSD was an up and coming illness which the british medical services have treated very swiftly and with much compassion (much to my surprise).

You see, a soldier who is suffering from PTSD is a threat to the safety of all around him and needs proffesional help; it has taken the governing bodies far too long to realise, that troops give but also need to take when their time has come.

In the 1st WW through the 2nd WW and deep into the 60s PTSD was just a case of either yellow belly or shirker syndrome. Not until the Vietnam war, did military medical staff and indeed their civilian counterparts realise that "shell-shock" is a debilitating medical syndrome; what we now know as PTSD.

There is a fantastic book out called Achilles in Vietnam written by Jhonathan Shay M.D. Ph.D. and well worth a read if you need to get to the bottom of things.

I myself needed help a couple of times - but you need to talk... we all do!

[harry hackedoff]

Heyup Martin, welcome aboard mate.
I have Jonathan Shay`s book and agree with you, a most excellant tome.
It compares the experiances of young working class(mostly) American youth in Viet Nam with the Illiad by Homer ( the Greek bloke, not Simpson) as well as certain Shakespearian geezers like that king bloke, Richard summat

Beyond the comparisons that Shay draws is something else which can also be usefull.
There is a large body of opinion which believes ( quite sincerely) that PTSD is a modern invention. That it didn`t exist before say, Viet nam. My dad was in the Boer war and he was ok, sort of arguement. That`s fine, of course. People will look to their peer group and see no outward signs of any distress," so we`re all o.k. then"
PTSD is as old as Mankind, it was there when we lived in caves.
What is new, what is modern, is the capacity to store and retrieve vast amounts of data on scales that have never been possible previously.
Alchohollism, violence, abusive relationships, drug abuse etc were never seen as symptoms of a condition, of a common denominator before the advent of computors.
Medical records of Viet Nam Vets were cross checked with, say, Police records or divorce statistics or even unemployment figures and a picture began to emerge.
Firstly, service in Viet Nam was definately bad for your health. It showed heart disease and strokes were abnormally higher in the Vets. You were far more likely to have a criminal record, or even to have been incarcerated and as for stable loving relationships, forget it.
What came out of these data studies was a pattern, a group of symptoms or a group of familiar circumstances. Large numbers of men fell into that group , that pattern.
There are many and varied symtoms and as individuals differ so the range of symtoms presented by each individual will also differ. Not everyone displays every symptom of course, and the idea of an alcholic ex-serviceman is not new. If he also beats his wife, well, that happens sometimes, maybe he can`t hold down a job because he`s just a lazy bastard. No job means it`s hard to pay for the drink so no wonder relationships go tits up.
In years gone by all of these things were accepted as being the way things work out for some people, "sad but let`s move on" was the accepted view. Now it can be proven that Serviceman exposed to abnormal levels of stress for even short times will suffer to some extent.
HMG is waking up at last. They have a duty of care. Not in a touchy feely, left wing lesbanian sort of way because Soldiers are not traffic wardens after all. There is inherant in the "job" an extereme degree of risk that is not acceptable within any civilian street occupation. But to be aware of a risk and not to either try and reduce it or to help those afected by that risk is negligent.
What grips me is that the various governments in UK have known this for at least sixty years and have done nothing. Nothing in the way of prevention. Knack all. Sad thing is that it is mostly preventable, the cost of broken homes, of guys in gaol of the suicides, financial cost is what concerns Governments. It`s all preventable.
Then suddenly there`s a Class Action, and the suits in Whitehall are shitting themselves. Good.
I once had the very humbling experiance of talking to four members of The Far East Prisoners Of War Association. PTSD exists.
Aye Harry

[Kanadiana]

You have me crying with this last post of yours because it's so heart breakingly true.

Just open eyes and see what you're looking at.

Most peoples perceptions seem to tend to stop before understanding occurs, and they act with that lack of understanding, adding more trauma and grief, the issues perpetuated. The personal and social ills ... life has NEVER happened without trauma, or without the inability to overcome it in a world where every obstacle to processing it and healing, getting on with life exists.

How the hell can we overcome, and do life happily and well in a world that won't give that the room to happen? As soon as someone screws up, some aspect of society is there to kick a ss backdown, either literally, or by the self-image society has taught the suffering to veiw themselves with.

Suicide. Hmmm. Very, very easy to comprehend.

We grow in understanding though. Both in understanding human beings, including especially understanding ourselves.
Places like this, people like all of you talking, teaching. Accepting.

Self-acceptance ... seems to be a survival struggle within ... did we teach ourselves to reject ourselves? I think not.

Trauma hurts us.
We hurt back out of isolation and frustration. Whatever.

No one is immune to trauma. When we turn our eyes on ourselves, it needs to be to understand so we can take power to build a life that works for us.

For myself ...well ... its a real struggle sometimes. I'm not nice to myself sometimes. That's where you all come in and help me do a little regaining of perspective... and self-esteem. Thank you. I needed that

I babble. (not crying anymore tho harry :p)

[Ploggers]

On your original question, specific to the military; in the old days it was always frowned upon to admit to being mentally effected by anything - be a man and all that. Moreover to admit to sickness, not just in terms of PTSD but any medical problem was deemed to mark you out as a skiver or not quite up to it. To 'go sick' had a overt negative undercurrent.

A lot of us have experienced PTSD, whether that is through personally suffering or being closely involved with oppos. Post Falklands for instance there was almost zero treatment, I was not ever interviewed by a medic despite going completely pear shaped during late 82/ early 83 The only offical reaction was military discipline. Now I have never received any treatment and have never been diagnosed but I know the symptoms and through many many pissed up conversations with former oppo's, I know the crack. I know I was effected down south as we all were ( whether you care to admit or not ) it's more a question of degree. I managed to rebuild my life eventually and at one stage it was completely f@#k! Now whether my ex partner would agree that I handled it is quite another matter!! They are the real hidden casualties of PTSD

Fortunately the condition is much more recognised these days and treatment is available, whether that treatment is accepted by rufty, tufty young soldiers is another matter - after all, you would have to go sick..... and that would never do.