Infantry gets the Minimi

[rabby]

http://ww2.modoracle.com/news/detail.h2f?id=2534

When I first read the headline "New Firepower for British Infantry" I thought, "YAY! they decided to replace the SA80". Well turns out I was wrong, but at least we are getting some new kit.

However I thought the Minimi was already in service, or was it just SF that used it?

[mattt_h]

used by 16 AAB and 7th armoured and the cmmdos, but not the whole army,

[lew]

"The arrival of the 5.56mm FN Herstal Minimi, a belt-fed weapon, will dramatically boost infantry firepower, complementing the battle-proven SA80 A2 automatic rifle."

is the SA80 A2 battle proven then ???

[rabby]

Must be, read further on...

The SA80 is an extremely accurate weapon against longer range targets and, in its improved A2 version, has now proved itself in battle in Iraq

But whether that is just more government spin...

[lew]

I read all of it, but I wanted to know from some one who has used in and not from a suit saying it’s a good rifle

[may18]

i read an article today that said now the LSW has been replaced the sa80 may be as well.

____
MOD set to replace unpopular rifle

BRIAN BRADY WESTMINSTER EDITOR
bdbrady@scotlandonsunday.com


DEFENCE chiefs are to spend millions of pounds on a new machine-gun for British troops in a move military experts say has sounded the death knell for the controversial SA80 rifle.

Ministers have admitted they want to buy more than 2,000 Minimi light machine-guns. The weapons will be given to infantry units to boost the firepower of front-line forces called into action in trouble-spots around the world.

But last night military experts said the move marked the beginning of the end of the controversial SA80 rifle, which has been dogged by complaints since its introduction in 1985.

The £7.5m order of Minimis, manufactured by the Belgian firm FN Herstal, is expected to begin replacing the SA80 Light Support Weapon (LSW), the machine-gun version of the troubled rifle, within months.

The 7kg Minimi is acknowledged to produce a heavier burst of rapid fire than the LSW, which critics claim cannot offer enough covering firepower to prevent troops being pinned down in combat.

Now the Minimi, already used by Marines and selected forces in Afghanistan and rushed into service as an "Urgent Operational Requirement" in Iraq, will be issued as standard to infantry units. Each four-strong infantry fire team will in future carry three SA80s, rather than four, plus one belt-fed Minimi, which can fire at least 750 rounds a minute over a wider area.

Yesterday a Ministry of Defence spokesman admitted that experiences in war zones, particularly Kosovo, had proved that the firepower available to British infantry was insufficient. He insisted that the Minimi would "complement" the SA80, not replace it.

However, government insiders and weapons experts claim the decision will have far-reaching consequences for the entire SA80 ‘family’ of weapons. One MoD source said: "It is hardly a vote of confidence in the LSW, is it? The LSW is the most problematic of the SA80s. I don’t expect it to be around much longer. The rifles might stagger on, but I think we are heading towards a decision to phase the entire series out."

Charles Cutshaw, associate editor of Jane’s Infantry Weapons, said the decision would come as no surprise to the industry. "The SA80 generally has had a chequered history. It has been a disaster for the British military," he said.

Servicemen and women across the three forces have complained that the original SA80 was difficult to clean and continually jammed, particularly in "extreme conditions" such as in the heat and dust of desert warfare.

It emerged last year that the previous Director of Infantry, Brigadier Seymour Monro, had called for both the rifle and the LSW to be scrapped amid the continuing complaints. Although the MoD was committed to keeping the SA80 in service until 2015, he warned that the weapon would not work with sophisticated new systems due to be issued to all infantrymen in 2008.

In a leaked document, Monro told his superiors: "The LSW, even when modified, is unlikely to be the most effective way of meeting the suppressive fire requirements of the infantry engaged in close combat," adding that "options such as the phasing out of the SA80 and the procurement of an off-the-shelf, proven weapon system need to be considered".

The government subsequently stuck by the SA80 and paid the German arms manufacturer Heckler and Koch £92m to redesign it, producing the "improved" SA80 A2 rifle, issued to 22,000 troops 18 months ago. Although s concerns about the rifle remained, it was judged to have performed successfully in the heat and dust of the Iraq campaign. The LSW version, however, did not receive such encouraging reports.

Liberal Democrat defence spokesman Paul Keetch, who has waged a long-running campaign against the SA80, said he hoped the announcement would be a decisive move in the efforts to ensure British forces had the best kit available.

He said: "The £92m that the government spent on getting Heckler and Koch to upgrade it has improved the SA80 to the standard where it was just about OK. However, the light support version is beyond redemption.

"You don’t want machine-guns to be too accurate, but to give a spread of heavy fire. The LSW was far too accurate. The Minimi gives a heavier burst of fire over a wider area.

"We bought it for our elite forces in Afghanistan and it did the job there. It has proved to be incredibly popular and extremely effective. I’d be very surprised if you found British forces using the SA80 for a long time into the future."

Defence Procurement Minister Lord Bach insisted that the Minimi would be complementing the "battle-proven" SA80 A2 automatic rifle.

But he added: "The SA80 is an extremely accurate weapon against longer-range targets... But one of the lessons learned from the Kosovo campaign was the need for an additional lightweight weapon that can provide a high rate of suppressing firepower."

[Tab]

Even at my age I have tried the SA80 Mk 2 and found it to be a good gun,
the LSW version off the SA 80 has not lived up to it's role as a light support machine gun. One thing in it's favour is with it's longer barrel and bipod it makes for one hell of an accurate rifle. As an a former infantry soldier I would be more than happy to go into battle with one.

[Cobalt]

Aw I loved my LSW. I hope they don't phase them all out.

As Tab said it's more accurate than Ron Jeremy in the 'bronco' position.

When prone with the bipod down and using the rear grip you can't miss a target.

[voodoo sprout]

I don't think the Minimi is replacing the LSW (besides, I love it too having never had to lug one around all day ) but complementing it, the standard fire team for some time to come will be one SA80, one SA80 UGL (Underbarrel Grenade Launcher), one LSW and one Minimi, finally putting us on par with everyone else with a half decent military.
The SA80 itself is now sufficiently reliable to earn it's keep I think, certainly in the eyes of politicians. The UGL has been successful, and the LSW is an excellent designated marksman rifle. And with the proven minimi, I don't see any impetus for weapon upgrades until the SA80 reaches the end of it's anticipated life in a few years unless it proves entirely incompatible with the new FIST systems, if they ever get off the ground that is .

[Skiffle]

The principal's behind the LSW and MINIMI are this.

The LSW was to provide long range (longer than the rifle) support and cover for any section in an attacking roll. I.E. by placing accurate light weight of rounds on the enemy (creating effective fire) and forcing the enemy into cover.

The LSW while accurate, has been shown not to place a great enougth weight of fire on the enemy (tended to place a few blokes in cover while the point of fire is adjusted)

The MINIMI is being introduced to solve this problem, by being able to place a greater weight of fire of a similar range, their by keeping more of the ememy's head's down.

While MINIMI is being introduced into the setion's for this purpose, their will still be an LSW in a section for greater range accuracy.

This is the way a PW explained it to me and while they both have good trait's and purpose's they each are able to cover the bad point's of the other weapon.

[smamit]

Hell bells ,We started using the minimi back in 1989 in infantry units togetter with the tryed and true 7.62mm MAG ,the plastic ammo box was shit so each unit made their owen ,I remember that the MAG was and still is thought to be more relyable than the minmi and the Israeli NEGEV that came into servce in 96/97,Today we use NEGEV's for front line and MAG's for fire support. your's Adam

[El Prez]

For all lovers of the SA80.............

"The enemy fire was fairly wild but it was almost impossible to pin them down as they darted around changing their positions. That was until one bold Iraqi strolled around a corner and started firing only six feet from the lead section. Luckily the shots Cpl Bowden was able to fire before his rifle stopped were enough to silence the man".

from the latest G&L.

[El Prez]

There I was quietly pleased to see the old harridan back in print when whack, she hits me from behind with her razor like tongue and claws,.....................oooooooh, Ta!

Consider me moderated, I'll be a wee free at this rate, General assembly anyone?
(That will be totally wasted on anyone who has never 'enjoyed' Jockland)

[rabby]

Oi! I heerd that!

We should have moderators box, like a swear box, but for moderators (obviously the rest of us dont have to donate because were expected to mess up ) when they require moderating. That's 20 quid your out Prez!

[El Prez]

Jungle Rules ya Tam Wazzock! There are no rules. You just disappear into the ether.
Would that be 20 of your fine quality notes, or some of the photocopy rubbish they use down here?