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scottish independance

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may18
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scottish independance

Post by may18 »

Hiya

I know we have a lot of scottish guys around here :D .

I was wondering, do you want complete independance from the UK?.

Ie do you guys just want the ability to raise your own taxes etc, or a complete break from the union with no military links, foreign policy links etc?.


How would this effect the respective military forces of each country do you think? and economically do you think you would be better or worse off?
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rabby
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Post by rabby »

We can't be totally free, there is no way we would survive, we want partial freedom, freedom to make our own desisions about whats best for Scotland, not Great Britain. Economically I don't know, there is oil, which is running low, same with gas, its all Scottish, but there aint much left.
Militarily, there is plenty of Scottish regiments and divisions, but a split would cause massive chaos in the Forces.
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Tab
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Post by Tab »

What about freedom for England, what about a English Parliament with only English MP's. What about jobs, and houses in England for English people. Why should Scotish MP's sit and rule the English while at same time wanting the English out of Scotish affairs. Come on lets have a level playing field here.
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Post by Maria »

Many, although not all Scots would agree with Rabby, most of us do want freedom to make decisions that are important to and for Scotland and the Scottish people. However, I am one that would argue for complete independance. Then the success or failure of Scotland lies squarely on the shoulders of the Scots themselves. Other small nations have made a success of Independance and now have considerably more viable economies as a result.

As for freedom for England, an English parliament with English MP's etc - no problem - you want it go get it!

The Scots have argued for years to have a level playing field, finally, in some quarters they are being heard.

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El Prez
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Post by El Prez »

Before independence for the English, how about levelling the playing field, as suggested, and bringing our old age care etc up to Scottish levels. The first decisions made by an independent Scottish parliament relieved th eanxieties of thousands of senior citizens, ensuring for them a safe and caring future. Blair and Brown would fill their nappies if we tried that down here.
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Post by Andy O'Pray »

Having deserted the UK for Canada, I don't suppose I should have a say on this topic, however, if I were a Scot living in the UK I would vote no to independance.

I agree with autonomy for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, where each part of the UK can look after it's self interests as long as those self interests are not in conflict with the interests of other parts of the UK.

I know that other countries in the world run a system of a federal government over seeing, provincial or terrotorial governments. I will only speak of Canada as that is the country of which I am most familiar.

Each province/territory has it's own government and have decision making authority for such things as on land resources, education, (providing it meets federal regulations), provincial laws and policing, (not covered by federal law), licensing, raising taxes, offshore resources, etc.

The federal government is responsible for the defence, foreign policy, health care, fisheries, raising taxes, federal law, RCMP, federal pensions, etc. There is a transfer payment system, where monies taken in from rich provinces will be distributed as equalisation payments to poorer provinces.

The system is by no means perfect. The federal government lays out the criteria for basic healthcare, providing each province/territory abides by the criteria, they are free to manipulate within the guidelines, resulting in an uneven healthcare system. There is also quite a bit of duplication between federal and provincial governments, which in turn costs the taxpayer.

Canada is a relatively young country with wrinkles to iron out. I am quite sure that the UK with it's vast knowledge and experience could hammer out a federal system while giving autonomy to the regions.

I would not like to see the UK break up and I think that it would be detrimental to the country as a whole.

Aye - Andy. :laola: :laola: :laola: :laola: :laola: :laola: :laola:

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Post by gash-hand »

i'm all for scottish independence, and welsh, and irish, and cornish - in fact anyone who wants it.
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Tab
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Post by Tab »

I agree with you Andy I would hate to see the UK break up, well who amongst us can say we do not have a Scot, Irish or Welsh Blood in us.
But Blair went down this path of giving Scotland and Wales there own Parliaments, but he can't afford to lose all the Labour MP's from these places that sit in Westminster. If the the 65 Scotish Labour MP's were not allowed to Sit in an English Parliament and the 50 odd Labour MP's from Wales then where is his majority at Westminster in the richest section of the UK. Well it would be gone for ever, and he would be left out in the cold. This is one of the reasons my Council Tax has just gone up 40% as they have transferred even more money up North to make sure that they continue to buy the votes from these areas.
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Andy O'Pray
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Post by Andy O'Pray »

When asked about the Canadian political system, I usually reply that it is ten principalities trying to act like one country and that is what could happen in the UK if they stay with the autonomy system, but it would still be the UK.

The downside to this system is that the taxpayer is paying for twice the amount of politicians, twice the amount of civil servants and twice the amount of programmes. Why don't we just get back to where we were? My UK passport says British, when I fill in any application that requires my country of origin, Britain.

Aye - Andy. :drinking:
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Post by Andy O'Pray »

Further to our discussion on autonomy/independance. Several years ago a couple of forward thinking Canadian politicians suggested that the Atlantic provinces combine to make one province. PEI, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland, combined do not have a population to compare with Quebec, Ontario, Alberta or British Columbia. I offered my written support to the idea. That was shot down in quick order.

That would mean a 75% reduction in politicians and civil servants, where would the capital be? Who would control what? What about our self interests? That means that fishermen from any of the Atlantic provinces could fish anywhere within a new province..

Think about that when you think of an automonist Britain.

Aye - Andy. :drinking:
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Post by BenChug »

Andy is my god :angel:
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Post by jonboy »

Hearing discussions about scotish or welsh independence is, I find, a bunch of bolloux, because it will never happen as 1: Apart from a few prats who still live in the past, people are happy or dont realy care about the subject. 2: The celts (excluding cornish) would become worse off for it.
There should be more talk on keeping Britain british.
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Post by rigger »

As an expat, I would like to put in my tuppence worth.

An independent Scotland may seem a romantic ideal, but I doubt it would survive the harsh economic, and highly competetive realities of the big bad world. An earlier post said the gas and oil reserves are low, so what's the big plan? Most of the consumer goods I see appear to be made in China, and almost all of the multinationals use this source of very cheap labour. Apart from that, if they go the whole hog and introduce borders, customs etc, it's doomed to failure!
All the regions of the UK are still fiercely jealous of their own cultures, accents etc, and I can't see them dying out in a United Kingdom. I reckon any calls for independence, from whatever region, would be a backward step.
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Post by voodoo sprout »

While I'm not Scottish (or Welsh or Irish for that matter), I do think a complete seperation of any part of the UK would be a terrible thing. My complaint is that about all of the arguements I've heard about independance are economic, with some people saying how they're losing money, others saying their making a profit out of the UK. But they seem to ignore foreign issues. Yes, there are a fair number of Scottish army regiments (and RAF and naval bases, albeit without any Scottish ships or aircraft to put in them :) ), but it's military capability would be negiligable in the international arena, and the rest of the UK would suffer greatly.
The first result of this would be a much smaller ability to act independantly as with Sierra Leone, and more importanty, our political clout would be diminished. All the indications are that we, largely through Tony Blair, have been very important in restraining Bush and keeping him on side with the UN for a fair period of time. If we lose our strength, our ability to do that will be reduced, and in future he may not listen even to us. The same goes with other issues, such as the EU. Military strength may have little influence, but a split UK economy would seriously hamper our ability to limit Fanco-German dominance and influence. Every blip on our GDP makes us more able to push through the likes of CAP reform, more favourable trade solutions and so on.
Then there are domestic social issues, people here seem to be in agreement that a large factor in the current lack of repsect prevailent in youth culture is due to having little to repsect. If parts of the UK start breaking away, being British will mean even less, with potential for even more degeneration. Or potentially more damaging, an even larger resurgence in English pride, alienating pretty much everyone else.
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Post by faddius »

I think that although Scotland should gain full sovereign and democratic independance at this stage in history the structural, economic and social difficulties are too immense to overcome. There is great integration on many playing fields between the UK as a political entity and Scotland as a country.

That said if a poor Ireland can transform itself entirely in 60 years without natural assets such as much Oil or Gas and base its economy on a services driven globalised hub I don't see why Scotland in theory could not also do so.
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