Canadian interested in joining UKSF

[Moosehead]

Hello, I'm new to the forum. Stumbled upon it after a long search into the 22nd SAS.

I wanted to know if people on the forum had met any Canadians who had made it into officer (or high NCO) ranks in either the Marines or SBS/SAS.

I am leaning towards joining the Forces, however Canada is experiencing something of a crisis in operational budgeting with the Army. It is not confidence inspiring when our boys were sent to Afganistan in combat greens, driving 20 year old Iltis Jeeps. This has sent me on a quest to examine other forces such as the UK, US and Australian to examine other options. Also, my first boss was SAS who fought in Korea (he is now 67) and he was a great inspiration to examine the military lifestyle.

As far as myself, I am 19 years old in excellent physical shape. Currently in commerce studies, first year. My mother is British and I have eligibility for a passport and thus the possibility of citizenship.

What do you think about my oppurtunities in the UK Army/Marines, leading to SF work? Would a career as an officer be likely for a Canadian?
Do the British accept officers without a bachelor degree?
(Canada does not)

I look forward to any information you can give me, as the UK recruiters have not had any definite answers for me.

[df2inaus]

Moosehead,

I know for a fact Canadians will be accepted to Sandhurst and thus British army officer training, I was there, as was one other at the time. He's in RGJ now.

As for joining without a degree, yes you may. Roughly 15 pct of the cadets on the commissioning course these days do not have degrees. A degree is not essential even for the Royal Signals or the REME. However, bear in mind many of the non-graduates will come from Welbeck , the Army's own sixth-form college (high school).

Even with UK nationality, I think RCB would prefer you have a degree. That being said, go to the RCB now, try 120% and go for it, as the younger you are, the better training will be.

Seems the army still respects A-levels and GCSE's, that's high school graduate to us Canucks, at a time when their prestige is fading fast (not the students' fault!).

If you read Immediate Action carefully, you will note that while McNab was undergoing selection for the first time, he trained with a Canadian officer, "Max", who was in the Royal Green Jackets as well (they are a sister regiment of PPCLI). On his Second selection, one of the soldiers was a Canadian.

What concerns me is that you want to go special forces from the beginning. Join the regular army, get promoted, enjoy it, then think about it-what's the rush? If it means that much to you join 21 or 22 SAS Territorial Army right off civvy street. Why do you have to go in as an officer? Just curious.

It is not confidence inspiring when our boys were sent to Afganistan in combat greens, driving 20 year old Iltis Jeeps.

As for the Canadian Army, even at 19 you must be old enough to remember when they didn't even have DPM battledress. The olive-green Vietnam era battledress had been worn by the Canadian Army since 1964 and we were the last NATO country to get DPM. I believe the soldiers that went to Afghanistan were probably the first unit to have it.

And the Iltis, nothing is totally impregnable to mines or mortars, the sad thing is that Trudeau stipulated that Bombardier had to build the Iltis in Canada instead of Volkswagen. Volkswagen could do it for $24,000 each, Bombardier $84,000. Then the Liberals cut the defence budget to the point where, like every other peice of Canadian military hardware, they can't afford the parts and are short of maintenace personnel. Do not dream of joining the CF for a career unless the Conservative party has been in office for at least two years. Don't get me started .

[sneaky beaky]

df2inaus,
Hi! there.
I liked the last post but could I ask you on behalf of a lot of us old fogeys to stop talking in INITIALS!! I can work out REME 'cos that's quite old and standard. I think I can work out RGJ (Royal Green Jackets?) but some of the other stuff doesn't ring a bell to my old brain. I'm sure RCB means something but what? PPCLI is another.
Can I ask all contributors to remember that not all of us are up to speed on current abbreviations?
Thanks,
Sneaky.

[df2inaus]

Sneaky beaky,

A thousand apologies! Having been in the TA and having an interest in the Canadian Forces (CF) has left me with far too much info, I know

RCB= Regular Commissions Board
PPCLI= Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
GCSE= General Certificate of Secondary Education (replaced O-levels?)
DPM=Disruptive Pattern Material (Camoflage battledress)

I ask you on behalf of a lot of us old fogeys to stop talking in INITIALS!!

I was just throwing a bit of lingo at a young pup to scare him somewhat

df2inaus

[Moosehead]

df2inaus,

Appreciate the response! This is a complex issue (immigration, legally, financially) but what is important is that I am interested and everything will fall into place.

You mention:

"Even with UK nationality, I think RCB would prefer you have a degree. That being said, go to the RCB now, try 120% and go for it, as the younger you are, the better training will be. "


How would one go about contacting the Royal Commisioning Board? If I were to contact them, how would I try 120% ? Please clarify.

I'm planning a trip to the UK for this summer, to research the military and see my family. Perhaps some face to face negotiations with RCB would be possible.


Also:

"Seems the army still respects A-levels and GCSE's, that's high school graduate to us Canucks, at a time when their prestige is fading fast (not the students' fault!)."

Army prestige is falling or GCSE's prestige are falling?


Also:

"Why do you have to go in as an officer? Just curious."


I suppose I don't have to go in as an officer. I am interested in the political and strategic sides of the Forces, not just the combat and training. I imagine you would have some exposure to the intelligence side of things as a NCO. 21 or 23 SAS are reserve are they not? I would certainly be a full-time Regular if I were to move to Britain. Financially, to pack up and move to the UK I doubt it would be possible on a Private's salary. You could live on the barracks and there are subsidies along with it, so that may not be as big a concern as I think it is.


As far as joining SF, those are a long way into the future, but a goal if I were to enlist. Since my original Army inspiration comes from an SAS man, it is only fitting.

I remember the"Clothe The Soldier" project. How depressing. I read stories of soldiers ordering equipment from US surplus houses.

I am currently reading Canadian L. Gen. Romeo Daillaire's "Shake Hands With The Devil." It mentions funding problems in the late 80's - early 90's in the artillery and manpower shortages. Very powerful book so far, highly reccomended.




As a Canadian serving overseas, how did you find you treatment by other soldiers and superiors? Was there a level of comradeship or difficulties with relating with one another? Did people understand you serving in Britain over Canada?



I appreciate everyone on the boards views on the topic, advice is valuable.

[sneaky beaky]

Thanks df2inaus.
I am now enlightened.!! I should have known RCB and GCSE but the other two I would have had difficulty with.
I wish you success with your desire to join the British Forces. If you search this web site enough you will find that Framewolf and others have had similar problems, being from S. Africa. There have been a lot of helpful replies. I suggest you look them up. The advice is fairly supportive!!
Good Luck,
Sneaky Beaky
PS To all other contributors to this and any other thread, please talk in plain language. Just remember we are not as young as we used to be!!

[sneaky beaky]

Thanks df2inaus.
I am now enlightened.!! I should have known RCB and GCSE but the other two I would have had difficulty with.
I wish you success with your desire to join the British Forces. If you search this web site enough you will find that Framewolf and others have had similar problems, being from S. Africa. There have been a lot of helpful replies. I suggest you look them up. The advice is fairly supportive!!
Good Luck,
Sneaky Beaky
PS To all other contributors to this and any other thread, please talk in plain language. Just remember we are not as young as we used to be!!

[df2inaus]

Moosehead,

How would one go about contacting the Royal Commisioning Board? If I were to contact them, how would I try 120% ? Please clarify.

I'm planning a trip to the UK for this summer, to research the military and see my family. Perhaps some face to face negotiations with RCB would be possible.

You won’t likely be able to contact the RCB directly, nor should it be necessary. Contact an infantry regiment you’re interested in joining. In most cases, you can do this via the regimental website, but a handwritten letter would probably generate a response faster. They will sponsor you and thus secure a place for you at the RCB. An Army Careers Advisor, usually a retired Maj or Lt. Col. will either assist in the process or sponsor you themselves if they like what they see.

Note that the Royal Marines, the Royal Green Jackets (RGJ), the Light Infantry (LI), the Royal Gloucester, Berkshire & Wiltshire Regiment (RGBW), and the Black Watch (BW) do have Canadian nationals in their ranks and might be more welcoming.

Army prestige is falling or GCSE's prestige are falling?

To some extent, the army, not as many people are applying to Sandhurst and those that do are much older on average than they were say, 25 years ago.

To a much greater extent, GCSE’s, I’ve been a teacher in England and the results on GCSE’s are nowhere near what they could be, more experienced teachers insist that they have become progressively easier over the years and expectations of the student have declined dramatically, as they have in most English-speaking countries.

I suppose I don't have to go in as an officer. I am interested in the political and strategic sides of the Forces, not just the combat and training. I imagine you would have some exposure to the intelligence side of things as a NCO. 21 or 23 SAS are reserve are they not? I would certainly be a full-time Regular if I were to move to Britain. Financially, to pack up and move to the UK I doubt it would be possible on a Private's salary. You could live on the barracks and there are subsidies along with it, so that may not be as big a concern as I think it is.

Stop right there. Do NOT join as an officer simply to earn a higher salary, you either enjoy being in command or you do not. The very fact that you’re asking all these questions and treading carefully suggests you have officer qualities, but you must have pride in command. Six months at Sandhurst exposed that I did not.

At your age, there’s nothing wrong with a private’s salary. Consider that for your first year as an officer as a non-graduate, private soldiers will have a higher standard of living than you will!

21 and 23 SAS are Territorials, part-time soldiers, but when an SAS major visited my Territorial (that’s “reserve” or “militia” to Canadians) unit he said it all: “I don’t have many weekends off nor do I have many friends on the outside.” I’m under the impression that the SAS is very much the primary interest in these highly-professional men’s lives. They likely have very flexible jobs on civvy street. Chunky from York I’m sure would be pleased to answer all the questions about 21 or 23 SAS.

As far as joining SF, those are a long way into the future, but a goal if I were to enlist. Since my original Army inspiration comes from an SAS man, it is only fitting.

Bear in mind I do not know your boss, but I find it unusual that he would reveal that information to you if he were in the SAS. If he were genuine, he would likely speak more about his parent regiment, after all, they were the people who made him who he was and made him aspire to the pinnacle of soldiering.

Moosehead, what you need to do is forget about special forces and think carefully about what regiment you want to join. You’ll probably spend 8-9 years in the regulars before being considered for selection. I had the privilege of being trained by well-above-average calibre NCO's who had in fact failed SAS selection, and they were considered rising stars on the fast-track to say, Regimental Sergeant Major.

The experienced men on the forum would likely recommend that you join the Parachute Regiment, as their training is the closest thing possible in the regular army to SAS selection. Are you willing to step into a boxing ring with an opponent intent on maximum aggression? Will you jump out of a plane in pitch darkness with 100 extra pounds plus of metal strapped to you? The SAS will demand these personal qualities, so do the Paras, if you make it through their training, you may stand a better chance than the average soldier on passing selection. At Sandhurst, I trained with a cadet who was ex-Parachute Regiment as well as cadets who were accepted into the Paras and they were not ordinary men, believe me.

I remember the"Clothe The Soldier" project. How depressing. I read stories of soldiers ordering equipment from US surplus houses.

The Canadian Army is not alone in buying kit from surplus stores, every NATO soldier does it. If you’re going to be out in the field for 6 weeks you will find the kit that’s right for you. Canadian kit is considered to be of high quality.

I am currently reading Canadian L. Gen. Romeo Daillaire's "Shake Hands With The Devil." It mentions funding problems in the late 80's - early 90's in the artillery and manpower shortages. Very powerful book so far, highly reccomended.

All well and good, but too bad for the soldiers these Canadian Generals don’t publish their grievances until they’re retired. Instead of confronting the politicians while in uniform, they wait until their pension starts arriving on-time. Thats's one glaring difference right there between the Canadian Army and the British forces, Admiral Boyce dressed-down the government's overstretch of the forces on national television while serving as the Chief-of-Defence Staff. How many Canadian officers of General rank have resigned or publicly protested the government's destruction of our military? The last one to do so (that I know of) was a Navy man in the '60's during the disastrous unification of the Canadian Forces.

As a British soldier, you will have more confidence in your leadership that they'll stick up for you in peacetime as well as wartime.

As a Canadian serving overseas, how did you find you treatment by other soldiers and superiors? Was there a level of comradeship or difficulties with relating with one another? Did people understand you serving in Britain over Canada?

The British Army has a long tradition of foreigners in its ranks, particularly Fijians and Gurkhas. The army now has an increasing number of Australians, South Africans and to a smaller extent, New Zealanders and Canadians. Once you’re stuck in with those on your basic training, you’re not worried about what nation’s flag you’re under, your loyalty is to each other. Aus, NZ and Canada have armies that are well-known to be so short of men and money that the senior NCO’s and officers will understand completely.

On a lighter note, as a Canadian you will likely adjust more slowly to the army slang, regional accents and bone-dry sense of humour, which is extremely sarcastic yet delivered in a deadpan tone. The Aussies, Kiwis and Saffas are used to it.

Recommend you start watching British Comedies on the telly now if you don’t already. My wife’s English and once in a while she’ll say something I take offence to when she meant none, it takes time !

Feel free to private message and I'll help you get there.

df2inaus

[BenChug]

Joining straight up as a SF, I can tell you right now you would fail selection. The average age of a special forces soldier is around 28 years old, that basically means they have been proffesionally soldiering for awhile. You have to be very fit, have a high level of confidence in yourself while not being cocky, have a high level of soldiering skills even though as a cook theoretically you could apply and quite literally willing to take alot of shit. When the Airborne in Canada was disbanded pretty much all of us were offered a chance at JTF2 and pretty much everyone from the cream of the crop failed for one reason or another. Don't like being in a pipe you can barely squeeze through having water poured down it to the point you snap? I sure don't, doing a 5 kilometre run being told to eat up you have classes on map reading for the rest of the day, then as soon as you are done doing another 5km run and puking it all up along the way, then having another guy wander by when your done and being told you are going for a 20 km run isn't fun. At that point it is just as much whether you still have that stupid grin on your face when your told your going running again. And this was week one I needless to say i never joined JTF2 .

Find a unit which you like and soldier for awhile, if you don't like that stuff you won't like SF while they get alot more of a free hand in what they do they also have alot more restrictions at the same time. It is alot more down in the dirt with the rats than joe bloggins.

[df2inaus]

Moosehead,

Ben's right. If you're thinking special forces from the beginning, you're very unlikely to pass.

If you pass-off the square as top-third to best recruit (the hardest thing to achieve you could imagine), its the end of the beginning.

If you can deal with the unrelenting pressure of Junior NCO cadre and are promoted to Lance Corporal at a young age, its another step.

If you achieve a grade of distinction on Junior and Senior Brecon (up to eight years after being best recruit, the hardest thing to achieve you could ever imagine), keep it in mind.

I base my statements on having listened very carefully to the Directing Staff (DS) recount their own experiences of selection.

Unless Mike Curtis (CQB) and Andy McNab (Immediate Action) are lying, you will notice that during their early army careers they seemed to be ahead of the pack. Both passed off the square as best recruit. They were very aggressive boxers. They had seen combat. They also went for SAS selection when they had proven themselves as NCO's. Then, they both failed selection the first time.

Read those books and appreciate the amount of time it took for them to get there.

Next time you talk to your boss about the army, request that he limit the topic of conversation to his experience before the SAS.

If he was genuine, he'll understand why you're asking .

[Moosehead]

df2inaus,

I certainly wouldn't be going into the Special Forces right off the bat; I have no training or experience and even If they would allow a new recruit in I think it would be a terrible idea. I certainly want to build some experience in a "regular unit." Down the road, perhaps SF.

As far as my boss, he was a Para beforehand and is actually extremely unsupportive of my interest in the Army/SAS. He was shot multiple times, grenaded, bayoneted, got malaria, had his legs broken in a POW camp so he could not escape - and when he finally did escape and return home, he was not even allowed to tell his family what happened to him. Worst of all, due to his injuries he had to leave the Forces. A "thankless job" he says.

I come from a quite well off family and I am next in line with the family business. He thinks I should stick with that as apposed to playing "Hollywood commandoes and buggering around in a trench" -(his words) And as far as him being genuine, he's not a Walter. The regiment has been looking for him for years, and they finally got a hold of him and sent him a beret and offical letter acknowledging his service. I've seen the scars too, and I think it's pretty hard faking those!

You mention:

"You won’t likely be able to contact the RCB directly, nor should it be necessary. Contact an infantry regiment you’re interested in joining. In most cases, you can do this via the regimental website, but a handwritten letter would probably generate a response faster. They will sponsor you and thus secure a place for you at the RCB. An Army Careers Advisor, usually a retired Maj or Lt. Col. will either assist in the process or sponsor you themselves if they like what they see. "


My ace in the hole is that my great uncle is a recently retired Lt. Col. in the Army. He lives in England and I have only met him a few times at weddings and such but I have been in contact with him. I imagine a sponorship could be arranged thru him? Sill, I would have to find a regiment that wanted me to join with em. That is best done in person, not over the internet!

Also:

"As for joining without a degree, yes you may. Roughly 15 pct of the cadets on the commissioning course these days do not have degrees. A degree is not essential even for the Royal Signals or the REME. However, bear in mind many of the non-graduates will come from Welbeck , the Army's own sixth-form college (high school). "

So having a formal 4 year degree is not a requirement for entry? Are you obligated to get one over your term of service?

The degree I am working towards is actually a distance degree anyways thru Canada's own ex-military college Royal Roads University in Victoria. So I could do part time study towards that degree while serving, after getting thru Sandhurst.


As far as the British comedies go - Black Adder, Red Dwarf, Monty Python and the like are already on heavy rotation.

I've got to decide where to take this and start planning for the summer.


BenChug,

I've seen the JTF-2 video on the Can. Force site, it's obviously some heady stuff. I have no illusions about my soldiering abilities!


http://www.forces.gc.ca/dcds/units/jtf2/default_e.asp

[df2inaus]

Moosehead,

I certainly wouldn't be going into the Special Forces right off the bat; I have no training or experience and even If they would allow a new recruit in I think it would be a terrible idea. I certainly want to build some experience in a "regular unit." Down the road, perhaps SF.

For a while, I was under the impression you were planning to go straight into 22 SAS from Sandhurst !

As far as my boss, he was a Para beforehand and is actually extremely unsupportive of my interest in the Army/SAS. He was shot multiple times, grenaded, bayoneted, got malaria, had his legs broken in a POW camp so he could not escape - and when he finally did escape and return home, he was not even allowed to tell his family what happened to him. Worst of all, due to his injuries he had to leave the Forces. A "thankless job" he says.

Listen carefully to him. Unfortunately the military medical system is not what it used to be. Officer cadets at Sandhurst now pay about 30.00 pounds a month to be covered by BUPA, private medical insurance. The BUPA rep would not give me a straight answer about injuries on operations not being covered, said it was a grey area and expected people to live with it.

I apologize for being so cynical about your boss being a Walter. My father-in-law (who was a Royal Marine) has met Walters over the years and they always tend to be ex-SAS/SBS. Walter Mittys have appeared on this forum and the old hacks take great delight in exposing them!

My ace in the hole is that my great uncle is a recently retired Lt. Col. in the Army. He lives in England and I have only met him a few times at weddings and such but I have been in contact with him. I imagine a sponorship could be arranged thru him? Sill, I would have to find a regiment that wanted me to join with em. That is best done in person, not over the internet!

Your relative will be an immense help. He'll probably steer you towards his old regiment. I only mentioned the internet as a place for you to start the process, assuming you had no connections in the UK. You won't really be asked to join a regiment after week 22 reports at Sandhurst.

So having a formal 4 year degree is not a requirement for entry? Are you obligated to get one over your term of service?

Not at all. The army still respects the GCSE's and A-Level results of its applicants. You are not obliged to get a degree over the first four years and as a junior officer in the infantry, you will not have the time. The army will be your wife and mistress. Bear in mind tuition in the UK is low compared to Canada so you might consider pursuing your degree there afterwards. I recommend you go in now and drop university, you will respond better to the training the younger you are.

I've got to decide where to take this and start planning for the summer

The application process is a long one, best to get a work visa and support yourself in the UK by working. Having a UK address will also make it easier. Good luck and PM anytime if you wish!


df2inaus

[sneaky beaky]

What a pleasure to see a thread where the contributors are sensible, intelligent and able to express themselves clearly.
Thank you "Moosehead" and "df2inaus" for your recent posts.
I would think you will both do well in whatever you decide to undertake ( although I do hope that is the Royal Marines!!) Biased? Not me Chief!
Sneaky

[Moosehead]

I've had an extended disscussion with my father on the subject of joining up in Britain and he supports it. However he did bring up the fact that if I was to move over now and try and support myself, it would be extremely difficult given that I have few connections and few skills! I might be admitted to the program but be booted out of the country for running out of money in the meantime!! Also, from my previous travels in England - I can vouch for the price difference.

He suggests I finish my two year business program, get the diploma in my hand - then go. Continue training in the meantime. I plan on moving back to Victoria for next semester - I'll look into joining the local Reserve CScots then.

In the meantime, I'm writing a large paper discussing the role of the armed forces in todays changing battlefield and political climate. It's essentially getting to the bottom of why I want to join the forces and I look forward to seeing what the teach has to say once it is handed in.

The area I live in is very detatched from reality - I told some teachers that I was interested in joining the forces and they looked at me like a crazy man. "You know you could get sent away?!" they said. I mentioned that this was the point of being a soldier. I worry for some Canadians...

We are charting a dangerous course right now with our American policies - many of the comments mentioned yesterday in the State Of The Union adress by Bush were gay marriage, marijuanua, war on terror, food supply, medicare - all issues that Canada and US are squabbling about.

Also, I'll get on my uncles case - see what he thinks about all of this.

Thanks for all the advice, I monitor this board every now and then and keep in touch with any developments. Any advice you guys can give - post it!!

Thanks,
Moosehead

[df2inaus]

Moosehead,

The area I live in is very detatched from reality - I told some teachers that I was interested in joining the forces and they looked at me like a crazy man. "You know you could get sent away?!" they said. I mentioned that this was the point of being a soldier.

The area in which you live that is detached from reality is called Canada .