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Battlefields

General information on Military History.
Jason The Argonaut
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Battlefields

Post by Jason The Argonaut »

The Gallipoli Campaign
Gallipoli had its roots in strategic failure. By the end of 1914 trench warfare had spread along the line in the west. In the east Turkey had aligned itself with the Central Powers and Russia , Britain and France's main ally, was looking increasingly vulnerable.

Early in January 1915 matters came to a head when Russia asked for help in its fight against the Turks in the Caucasus. Britain and France began a naval campaign to break open the Dardanelles, the narrow strip of water that led from the Mediterranean into the Sea of Marmara and divided European from Asiatic Turkey. The ultimate aim was to knock the Turks out of the war by threatening their capital, Constantinople. When the most concerted attempt to smash the central defences of the Dardanelles failed on 18 March, a military force was assembled and plans were made to capture the shoreline of the Gallipoli Peninsula and so allow the naval campaign to be resumed.

The first landings on 25 April were made by British and French troops around Cape Helles and by Australian and New Zealanders to the north of Gaba Tepe. Although impressive in what they did manage to achieve, both nevertheless also failed to make headway and the crucial Kilid Bahr Plateau, which dominated the Dardanelles shoreline, remained unthreatened.

Quickly contained in narrow, poorly sited positions at Helles and the newly termed Anzac, all attempts to move forward were soundly defeated by the determined, well motivated Turkish defenders. A stalemate, such as the campaign had been intended to avoid, spread across the Peninsula and the frustrations of trench warfare were soon made worse by widespread sickness, monotonous food, trying weather and putrefying corpses.

In May tentative plans were drawn up for a fresh attempt to break out of the Anzac position onto the high ground to the north which climbed up the precipitous Sari Bair Ridge. When more British troops were made available the following month a new landing at Suvla Bay was added to the plan to support the northern flank of the Anzac attack. Both assaults began on the night of 6 August but rapidly disintegrated and within a week the initiative had been lost.

With few options remaining but to dig in for a difficult winter, in October the British government began to consider the need for evacuation. After several weeks of debate and delay, Anzac and Suvla were finally relinquished on 19 December, with Helles following suit on 9 January 1916. 46,000 allied troops had been killed during the fighting on land from a total of 250,000 casualties. The Turkish forces suffered losses which were possibly even greater.

Nigel Steel (IWM)

I recently watched a programme about Gallipoli on the History channel, my opinion they did not have the trained troops to attempt this campaign. I don't think the Allies had ever planed for the scenario that they found them selves in. They never had enough supplies to keep them supplied. And I think they might of underestimated the Turkish soldiers. I think I am right when I say this was there first beach landing attempted buy any modern army and from what I head they planed the landing's in about 5 weeks. I think that a landing like Gallipoli should have been given allot more time.
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Post by chunky from york »

well Jason it is a pity you were not there to tell them.

Unfortunately the way it works is ; the politicians tell the military what to do. The military salute and say 'yes sir'.

It doe not matter if the military have been starved of funds, men and equipment; they have to do the best the can with what thieve got, at the time.

I agree with your comments, but we are speaking with hindsight. I remember a very moving account by one of our Antipodean correspondents about the way Galipoli is remembered out there. A sheer waste of a lot of very brave men.
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Post by Jason The Argonaut »

well Jason it is a pity you were not there to tell them.
Well maybe some else should have, I know what your saying right and I know I can say those things in hindsight.

A sheer waste of a lot of very brave men - How True.
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Post by owdun »

You could say the same of Dieppe, but at least they learned the lessons in that instance, and applied them on June 6th 1944.


Aye Owdun. :evil:
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Post by Wholley »

Was'nt Sir Winston Churchill complicit in both those operations?
Wholley.
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Post by Jason The Argonaut »

Winston Churchill was widely credited for the Gallipoli Campaign. But I am not sure about Dieppe.

This explains more.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/overview_gf.htm
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Post by Jason The Argonaut »

The Naval Attempt on the Dardanelles
The reasons for trying to force open that narrow strip of water that separates Europe from Asia Minor were, on the surface, very simple. The bloody impasse on the western front had led some to seek solutions elsewhere and the war against the Turks seemed to offer one. The scenario went something like this. The Royal Navy with Nelsonian daring would blast its way through the Dardanelles, the Sea of Marmara and then the Narrows reducing the defending forts to rubble as it went. Then, anchoring in the shadow of Constantinople, its sheer presence would lead to revolution in Turkey and cow the Turkish government into surrender. The flank of Germany and Austria-Hungary would be exposed and with the sealanes to the Black Sea open, Russia could be supplied with much-needed munitions. Newly rejuvenated, her massive armies would steamroller westward into Berlin. If it had only been so.

The main opponents of the scheme, however, were the British admirals who would have to carry it out. Ships fighting forts is difficult at the best of times and in the horribly constricted waters of the Dardenelles, probably madness. The place was heavily defended with almost 200 guns, fixed torpedo tubes, submarine nets and hundreds of mines. The admirals refused to allow their best ships to be used and, apart from the newly built battleship Queen Elizabeth and the battlecruisers Inflexible and Irresistible, most of the ships were old, due for retirement and manned by mostly reserve crews. The same was true of the French contingent. In spite of this it was still a mighty fleet that began its attack on March 18th 1915. There were sixteen capital ships with all their supporting vessels and with Queen Elizabeth in the lead they entered the narrow strip of water. According to all who saw it the sight was magnificent, the great grey ships powering into the azure waters of the strait with the dun-coloured hills of Gallipolli beckoning on their portside. It was the ultimate expression of gunboat diplomacy as practised in the 19th century and it failed.
       
The battle raged from 9.00am to 5.00pm when, like office workers anxious to be off home, the British called it a day. All day long they had pounded the shore batteries and forts but the Turks never for a minute gave up returning fire. This was not how it should have been and the Royal Navy, used to the immediate surrender of natives overawed by the spectacle of naval power, seemed at a loss as to what to do. Later in the afternoon, minesweepers were sent forward with a view to freeing the waters ahead for the battleships to follow. These minesweepers were not even warships at all, but fishing trawlers fitted with mine cable-cutting equipment. They were crewed by civilians and had never been expected to do their job under the kind of fire they now experienced. It was to much for them and they turned about and fled. Almost immediately the French battleship Bouvet struck a mine, capsized and sank in just a few minutes. Then HMS Inflexible was holed by a mine and limped back out to sea, listing heavily. HMS Irresistible was abandoned after hitting another mine and HMS Ocean saw her steering gear destroyed. The fleet withdrew. Not a single mine had been cleared nor a single Turkish gun destroyed. Seven hundred allied lives had been lost and three capital ships. Later reports suggested that the Turks were at breaking point and almost out of ammunition when the ships turned back out to sea and perhaps a determined attack the next day might have succeeded. It was, however, over; not only the battle but that myth of invincibility that had clung to the Royal Navy for over a century.
I have read that during the minesweeping operation to clear the mines in the Dardanelles, that a row of 20 mines was missed. This seems to play a major factor in the out come of the battle. Maybe if the mines were cleared the Navy's would have had a chance to move more ships up the Dardanelles then they would of had more fire power to rain down on the Turk's. But then I am looking at it in hindsight.

Ship's lost :-
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HMS Ocean
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French Battleship, Bouvet
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HMS Inflexible
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HMS Queen Elizabeth
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Post by harry hackedoff »

Churchill complicit? That word assumes guilt.
He certainly was a supporter of the Galipolli landings and saw them as a swift way to open a second front against Herman, thereby bringing the war to a point where victory was possible. He was instrumental in the Allied landings in Sicily and the whole of the Italian Campaign during WWII. The phrase "soft under-belly of Europe" came back to haunt him.
Every year, thousands of Australians, mostly young, make the pilgrimage to Anzac Bay. Turks are seen as equal adversaries here. The sacrifice made by those young Aussies and Kiwis is one of the fundamental tenets of the Australian identity. They do not forget. All are interested by the part played by Royal in the evacuation; it’s not a thing they have been taught. Recently, a headmaster of a primary skool said his skool would no longer be remembering Anzac Day, as it was no longer relevant.
He was nearly lynched.
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Post by chunky from york »

Thanks Jason a very interesting account.
Chunky from York



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Post by spitz »

Recently, a headmaster of a primary skool said his skool would no longer be remembering Anzac Day, as it was no longer relevant.
He was nearly lynched.
I hope that bunch of Australian academics who wanted the ANZAC’s to apologise for the invasion at Gallipoli got a good beating too.

Interesting Article from a former Kiwi Army Officer about the myths and legends surrounding the ANZAC force, offers a more balanced view than Mel Gibson (yup, him again) in the movie Gallipoli. Might also add some perspective to anyone who’s interested in the Jessica Lynch story.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay. ... n=dialogue
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Post by Whitey »

Gallipoli, I saw the movie, I thought it was pretty good. @nd fronts are always nice. The question I have is, if the Royal Family and the Kiaser were related, why did they fight each other militarily, then become pals after the war, then enemies and friendsz again after ww2? We do this stuff too, but we aren't related to our enemies, well except for the revolution, but our people, not just leaders were related. Alot of men died it looks like to me over a family argument.

I still can't figure how the Turks were that tough then, seems like some Tommys with fixed bayonets could have fixed them.
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Post by Jason The Argonaut »

he question I have is, if the Royal Family and the Kiaser were related, why did they fight each other militarily, then become pals after the war
Well you could say the same thing about the American Civil War, family's where broke up over that issue. Well its was Albert who was related to the Kiaser not Victoria, she was Queen he was never King. The British people never really took to Albert because of his foreign blood. So he really had no say about going to war with Germany and the Kiaser, It was the PM and the Queen's choice. And from my knowledge there never where friends after the war how could they !!

Well WWI was not going to be prevented just because of one families allegiances to two different country's. Albert was now part of The Royal Family, he had to be gunning for Britain or the people and most likely Victoria would have lynched him. That's my view.

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Queen Victoria Empress of India, R.I.P
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Post by owdun »

Kaiser Bill was Queen Victoria's grandson, both Albert and Victoria were long dead before the start of WW1.George V was crowned on 23 June 1911, and was king when war started.


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Post by Jason The Argonaut »

Kaiser Bill was Queen Victoria's grandson, both Albert and Victoria were long dead before the start of WW1.George V was crowned on 23 June 1911, and was king when war started.


Aye Owdun.
Well I got that wrong :oops:, thanks for putting me straight Owdun. I need to think a bit more before I start posting. My history teacher would not be happy with me.
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Post by harry hackedoff »

My history teacher would not be happy with me.

Neither would Owdun. He was present at both Victoria’s Coronation, and her funeral. In fact, he helped to carry the box into St Paul’s. "Bloody heavy cow, she was".
For someone who’s grip on history extends to several "Lethal Weapon" movies, Mell Gibbo, has my respect as an actor. :roll: Not." They can take away my freedom, but they can`t take away my Giro!"
Last week was the anniversary of William Wallace’s demise, btw. Never mind, you`ll get your revenge at the Rugby World Cup. PHWAAARRR :P
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