SA80

[mattt_h]

i hope not the bareels on them 2 are a lot smaller

Why do you need a longer barrel when the FN2000 has a computerised fire control module/sight.

because the sight will break from time to time

[chunky from york]

One thing that needs to cleared up about the M16.
When it was introduced it had a fair few problems that have now been pretty much sorted out.
However the part about cleaning is a red herring, it was designed to be part of a generation of 'self cleaning' weapons designed by Eugene Stoner.
The type of propellant in the ammunition was of crucial importance, it burnt with a very low residue and the amount in the cartridge, the gas port location etc was designed around it.
When the weapon was accepted by the US airforce they dutifully bought the correct ammunition, However when it was accepted by all branches of the US arme forces vast amounts had to bought for the vietnam war. So like all Governments they bought the cheapest they could get. The result........cheap and dirty propellant.
Never mind squaddies dying look how many we get for a buck

[Pasha]

Dear Chunky,

I read your post with some interest. In the course of my research on the Borneo conflict, the Armalite was the one issue where there was really no consensus amongst my interviewees, they either loved it or hated it. So far a fifty - fifty split.

The M16 carried by US soldiers in Viet Nam was the retarded child of a rather elegant parent, the Armalite AR-15, designed by the weapons genius Eugene Stoner. The AR-15 was an ideal weapon for jungle warfare-lightweight, reliable, deadly. Its tiny 5.56mm bullet was more lethal than the 7.62mm it was designed to replace, because it tumbled end over endinside the victim's body, tearing a wide swathe of destruction rather than punching a neat hole straight through.

Alas the US Army did not accept the AR-15 without modifications. The bullet tended to wobble at minus 65 degrees fahrenheit, which could be a real problem had America gone to war with Antartica, so they increased the "degree of twist" in the rifling, which stabilized the round in frigid weather, but also reduced the tumbling inside the victim's body, and thus the weopan's lethality.

Anbother problem was lubrication: The technical manuals that accompanied the M16 recommended the same lubrication procedures as for its predecessor, the M14, regardless of the fact that the two rifles were as dissimilar as a sports car and a pick up truck. The conventional lubricant VV-L-800 decomposed in Viet Nam's humidity.

As you have already pinpointed though, what really destroyed the M16's efficiency was a change in propellant powder, from IMR (Improved Military Rifle) to slower burning conventional "ball" powder. This increased the cyclic rate from 700 to 1,000 per minute, which caused the weapon to jam, and as you said, it also left a residue which gummed up the barrel and the action. When Colt tested the M16 in 1965, it found that none of its samples failed if they used IMR, but half of them did on conventional ball powder.

At first the military denied that this was the real problem. The real problem was that soldiers were being lazy, not cleaning their weapons properly. The U.S. Congress didn't think much of this attitude when one of their number read them a letter a wounded Marine had wrote home to his mother:

"We've been on an operation since the 21st of last month ... We left with close to 1,400 men in our battalion and came back with half. We left with 250 men in our company and came back with 107. We left with 73 men in our platoon and came back with 19 ...
You know what killed most of us? Our own rifle ... the M16. Practically every one of our dead was found with his rifle torn down next to him where he had been trying to fix it."

After some years the M16 was retrofitted with a chrome-lined chamber and buffer modification to slow down the cyclic rate of fire, which made it a little more reliable - though still not as good as the original, using IMR. Why did they continue to use conventional ball powder? It was a complicated skein of interservice rivalry, bureaucratic inertia,and porkbarrel politics that has never been unraveled, and never will be.

A pity since it would be nice to point a finger: This man's inefficiency, or ego, or avarice killed more American GIs than any division in the Vietnamese Order of Battle.

Best regards

Pasha

[Sticky Blue]

Pasha,
I used to think all journos were t*ssers... what went wrong with you? You seem to be OK!
Most of my contact with the press has been at bad times and they were the sewer press I must admit.
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story" was their motto.

Nice posts and informative without any mention of the SA80 having an affair or being done for drink shooting.

[Pasha]

Hello Sticky,

I suppose it might be because I'm actually a photographer. More of a frontline sort of job than the average "scribbler", a creature that tends to sip sherry with the brass in a nice warm HQ in order to get the Bigger Picture. Yet hath mine bitterness seeped through?

I actually only started writing in order to get my snaps published as most publications prefer 'packages' and I didn't really trust any of the scribes that I knew, to do the subjects any justice. I still write on a fairly regular basis for Wire magazine (in house rag for Scaleys) as I'm reservist in that illustrious Corps. And of course there is the ongoing labour of love that has been my research on the Borneo Confrontation, for which I am deeply indebted to many, many good men on this forum.

Thank you for your kind note Sticky, I am honoured.

Warmest regards!

Pasha

[Rotary Booty]

Pasha

Sticky, and I are part of a team heavily involved in producing a Royal Marines Alternative Calendar 2004 to raise funds for a memorial in Plymouth to the guys who died on Op Telic. There's a thread by that name under Royal Marines, Miscellaneous Discussion, if you would like to see more details.

We intend making the calendar photograph for the month of March 2004, the first anniversary of the conflict, a photo of Royal Marines from Op Telic. I saw some of Tom Stoddard's photos of 539 Assault Squadron RM in the Sunday Times magazine of 8th June, and emailed him to ask if he could let us have some others to choose from. Unfortunately, there's been no reply to date.

Can you help us in any way on this? I realise you probably weren't out there yourself, but, a friend of a friend maybe.

The person whose photograph is chosen for the month of March will, of course, be given full credit, and will have their work in the most famous calendar since the Womens Institute Alternative Calendar 2000!

[Pasha]

Hello Rotary,

Yes I would be more than happy to help in way I can. I was briefly rotated in as a pool photographer, but I was attached to US Army advisory teams with the Kurdish Peshmerga in Northern Iraq, and as such did not encounter any UK forces.

I have met Tom Stoddart and he struck me as a very down to earth chap, who would gladly help anyone he could. Unfortunately he is also very, very busy and it might be some time before you get a reply. I do know of several snappers who were down south and will ask around to see if anyone was with the RM.

Rotary, have you and Sticky not considered the MoD? I have access to their press release picture library and will do a search for suitable images. I would have thought that they would be pretty co-operative in this instance. I am tied up this weekend but will start on some digging as soon as I can, what kind of deadline are we working on here?

Best regards!

Pasha

[Rotary Booty]

Thanks Pasha, that sounds great, and any images you can get to us will be gratefully accepted.

Sticky is our graphics tech-ie, and will be 'constructing' the calendar.
We are waiting to hear from various printers their estimates for printing time, but I reckon we need to have the calendar 'on the streets' by 1st October, at the very latest, to catch the season.

I think most servicemen baulk at the very mention of MoD, but it's a valid point. We are hoping for something unique, and one of the Unit photographers may just have the one we are looking for.

Yours aye, Derek

[chunky from york]

Pasha

The business of the 'tumbling' bullets was also caused by penny pinching, thr original design was for a 'boat tailed' bullet. But if the end of the bullet is cut off straight, well my boy look how much we can save 'also senator the factory in your state can employ more people who will vote for you come election time'. But of course no one would actualy say such a thing out loud.

You will have noticed that in Iraq the US forces are armed with the M4, this is the new variant of the M16. Identified by 6 inch shorter barrel and tubular. telescopic butt (same as colt commando). Slight downside in hotter operating temps after 1 mag and increased recoil (tell that to some one who fired the SLR or No4 SMLE ).

It occours to me that the UK could have bought a hell of a lot of unused M16A2 at a very advantage rate, in exchange for president blairs support.

A scurrilous rumour I heard was that the SA80 was upgraded to A2 to ensure that Heckler and Koch ( owned by British AeroSpace), had a full order book as the Chancellor was thinking of selling it????

[Tab]

In an American Military report that looked into the loss of the convoy in Iraq, in which Jessica Lynch was traveling. The Investigators found that most opf the weapons in that convoy did work as they had mot been properly maintained. Now if the Americans are still having troubles with their weapons, then it can't be any surprise that we will have some trouble with ours.

[hammond]

Ive read some very long and detailed reports on the SA80 and it would indeed appear that the A2 is as reliable as any other modern assault rifle.

Having said that, in the desert, ANY rifle (M16, G36, etc) will come accross a stoppage eventually, as will the SA80.

America is also having a similar controvesy over its M4 because its reported to be totally useless beyond 75m or so, and soldiers in afghanistan reported putting multiple mid-section shots on their enemies without them falling down (the short barrel mucks up the balistics).

[lew]

I may be wrong so correct me if I am, but I thought the M4 was only used by sf in high intensity CQB much like the MP5...


lew

[Dmanton300]

America is also having a similar controvesy over its M4 because its reported to be totally useless beyond 75m or so, and soldiers in afghanistan reported putting multiple mid-section shots on their enemies without them falling down (the short barrel mucks up the balistics).

If "BlackHawk Down" is to be believed (and I see no reason not to) another reason for the lack of effectiveness is the use of the "green tip" Teflon coated rounds which are meant for penetration of Kevlar type ballistic protection. If it doesn't hit a vital organ or a bone (and it's surprising how many don't!) then no major damage is done. Probably still smart a bit I reckon! A brief search found this on the web:-

"The lethality of the original M193 5.56mm projectile is

awesome, at ranges under 200 meters, due to the tendency of the

marginally stable 55-grain bullet to tumble or shatter on impact

with any target. Lethality of the M193 5.56mm projectile beyond

200 meters, however, falls very sharply as range increases and

velocity decreases.29 The lethality of the new SS109 5.56mm

projectile on the battlefield is questionable. The SS109

projectile is longer and heavier than the M193 projectile and is

more stabilized in flight with the faster rifling twist used in

second generation assault rifles. The emphasis, in the develop-

ment of te SS109 projectile, was to increase stability and

therefore penetration at longer ranges. The increased flight

stability of the new SS109 projectile does effectively enhance

penetration at longer ranges, but this same stability reduces the

projectile's tendency to tumble or shatter upon target im-

pact.30 As a result, the emphasis on penetration in the new

SS109 projectile may result in a sharp decrease in lethality, as

compared to its predecessor M193 cartridge."

It's okay Prez, I'll get me coat (anorak!)

[El Prez]

[harry hackedoff]

Ages ago(12 Nov, 2002) I posted this,

Spoke to a young guy on leave from their SAS, they`ve just rotated the unit in the"Stan" as he called it. He was part of the patrol that got bounced by the bad guys. They were O.P.-ing some Talliban when one of the patrol was pinged early in the afternoon. A very intense fire fight ensued during which the Aussies decided to exfiltrate(love the way he said ixfiltrate). In contact all the time, they called for a speedy vehicle thin outers. The Talliban were engaging with heavy weapons, mortars, artillery rockets and HMGs and night was quickly approaching. Their FAC called in the Herky gun ship who rapidly gave the opposition the good news, allowing our heroes to escape. This is what sparked off Opp Condor. He spoke of 45 in the most glowing terms(no surprises there, then) and said 45 found all of the remains of the Herkys nights work, but no bodies, sadly. The rest of his time was spent on the border waiting for a predicted large scale incursion from Pakistan which never materialised. Nice bloke, when I asked his name he replied" Aw, just call me'mate' mate"
We spoke about the probs with SA80 and to my surprise, he said the all singing and dancing version of the Armalite aint all it`s cracked up to be, either. The reduced barrel lenght(by six inches!) means it gets very hot very quickly. So hot in fact that you can`t touch the forestock. The weapon rattles like Santa`s sleigh and the magazine housing is so under-designed that they had lots of stoppages due to mags dropping off in contact! He sensibly declined my offer of a few wets as he was going to the official lunch. Wished I was

That was from a thread which started off about phone scams, but came good in the end

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