Suicide bombers killing kiddies in southern Russia...

[bigbart]

There's no excuse for the way the Russians are treating Chechnya, but there is no excuse for these tw*ts targeting a school. No matter what your enemy has done, targeting their children is f****ng cowardly. They can't stand up for themselves, and they haven't done anything wrong. I don't think Chechnya are in the wrong in the bigger picture, but killing civilians is never justified. Especially not kids.

[Peds]

"Rescuers had made their final grim discovery late on Saturday night in the basement. A local health official said the bodies of up to 10 children were found there, the site of the final stand of one of the militants."

"Rumours already began to circulate of acts of revenge. Russian media reported that some locals had headed into neighbouring Ingushetia - from where some of the militants are thought to have come - and abducted 10 Ingush men."

Something tells me those 10 Ingush men won't be going home to see their children.

Some snippets from the Guardian today.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/articl ... 45,00.html

[bigbart]

And i'd bet there's nothing to suggest that those kidnapped men had anything to do with the school siege. Those blokes might even condemn what happened.
The stupid sods that kidnapped these blokes are nearly as bad as the arseholes who raided the school. You can't get anywhere near your real enemy, so go and kill a few innocent civvies who don't want to play your war games. Yeah, that always achieves a lot. Dumb c**ts.

[Redhand]

You should consider the point that you, me and probably most people on this forum don't know what it's like to lose loved ones in a terrorist attack.

Imagine losing a child or best friend...it could drive any man mad. Of course its not 'right' to go seek revenge...but what would you or i do in the same situation?

It is impossible to say...

[bigbart]

It is hard to say, but after going through the pain of mourning, I don't think I'd want to put more innocent people through the same thing.
I WOULD want revenge, and I'd want it with a passion. But I wouldn't want revenge on people who had nothing to do with the attack in the first place. People may disagree, but that's just me. I'm not a pacifist, and I believe violence can solve some things, but killing innocent civilians in my eyes is never justified

[Boxingmad]

KlinkKlank go to http://www.ogrish.com/index.php?class=s ... w&id=16906 (WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC) and here you will see what arabs are capable of doing.

Thats the kind of friendly people you have in Iraq. These Islam nutters need to be totally destroyed! They should send in the Gurkhas to get revenge, the savage bastards..........[/quote]

I've just watched that.

I am speechless. I actually feel like crying. A young man who got work in Iraq. Nothing to do with the war. That has to be the most savage act of human nature I have ever witnessed. He was killed slowly, then they let him choke - die slowly, then finished him off. The sounds he made are just gruesome. Any ounce of compasssion I had for those evil f@#k has gone.

These are savages. They are still living in the Dark Ages. That is how they treat people. Those fundamentalists using the mosques as cover for their evil would gladly do the same to all of us in Britain if they had the chance. Make no mistake about it. That is the mentality that we are dealing with now. The blatant disregard they had for human life on Sept 11 is personified in that sequence. He was a Nepalese just trying to earn a bit of money for him and his family. The others were lucky - they got shot, but even there they are shooting them slowly. You can hear them moaning as their lives ebb away.

This should be shown on TV. Then the whole of Britain will see exactly what we've got ourselves into in Iraq.

[MrMitty]

That was awful I feel sick, poor blokes.

What is the answer to this?

[Greg S]

A quote I heard once 'Sadam Hussein is a product of Iraq, Iraq wasn't a product of Saddam Hussein'!

There were full blown riots in Nepal, people went apesh*t attacking anything Arab after they found out what happened. At the end of the day we shouldn't be in Iraq, why bother helping those that can't help themselves (they didn't fight against Sadam but are willing to kill Americans/Brits).

I say put Sadam back in charge, at least his fear bought stability. Notice how other Arab nations have done BUGGER ALL to help their 'brothers' in Iraq??! As for the Clerics in Iraq - sad bunch of Gadaffi wannabe tossers.

[Peds]

Re the execution of Nepalese hostages and the following terror attacks on various airlines.

Family friends of ours, a couple of 55 and 61 years, both teachers, spent the last few years in Pakistan teaching young children. After spending the summer back in the UK, they planned to go out to Nepal to do the same thing, teaching in under-privileged schools.
After the execution of the 12 men, the Nepalese retaliated by attacking the offices (and I think the embassy, but my memory is hazy) of various Arab airlines in Nepal. Because of the attacks, all flights were cancelled, meaning our friends can't get out there to teach young kiddies.
Revenge only slows down life.

[Greg S]

A quote by Ghandi; "A eye for a eye and the whole world goes blind!".

He was a good bloke killed by his own kind, just like Jesus Christ. Unfortunately in this wold violence IS the ultimate force which decides who has power and who doesn't. Hence the past two world wars.

Reality sure is unpleasent, just like nature and its poisonus creatures and deadly diseases. Its better just to accept it though - otherwise you become traumatised and end up a head case. Like Norman Wisdom said.....its better to laugh than cry.

[Chief_1975]

Nothing whatsoever can explain or justify the unspeakable cruelty of the terrorists, who remain solely responsible for the wholesale massacre of children in the school in Beslan.
Nevertheless, some responsibility for the calamitous outcome also belongs to Russia's special military units which, yet again, bungled a rescue operation and exacerbated the tragedy.
The Russian Spetsnatz, or special forces, have had a glorious reputation for decades.
Indeed, as the Soviet Union collapsed, they were the only troops of an otherwise despised and ridiculed Russian military still considered fashionable.
Every street market in Russia sells some items of their uniform or insignia, and most young Russian men - even those who will do everything to escape military service - still wear them eagerly.


Special status
The Alpha hostage rescue unit, directly subordinated to Russia's FSB security service, is considered an elite within the elite - the ultimate in military ruthlessness and precision.
Yet, as the horror of the Beslan school indicates, much of this reputation is unwarranted.
A decade of war has devastated much of the Chechen capital Grozny
The Russian military's first failure during the latest school hostage crisis was in the overall strategy.
As any anti-terrorism expert knows, not all such hostage crises are the same. If the number of hostages is relatively small, the situation can be fairly stable, and a government has some time to negotiate with the terrorists, while preparing its response.
But if the number of hostages is large - and it was huge in the Beslan school - the situation is inherently unstable from the start, and violence can erupt at any moment.
The reason for this is that the terrorists themselves are unsure of their situation, and the chances are high that some of the hostages would rebel, thereby starting the shoot-out everyone is seeking to avoid.


Taken by surprise
Either way, it should have been clear from the start that, even if the Russian government ruled out a military assault on the school - as President Vladimir Putin now claims - preparations to storm the building at a moment's notice should have been ready.
Yet nothing of the kind appears to have been planned: when the explosions and shooting started, it caught the Russian military commanders completely by surprise.
The result was no less than 10 hours of shooting - just about the surest way of guaranteeing heavy casualties.
Ultimately, the Russian troops did what they know best: shoot in all directions with massive firepower, rather than execute the surgical strike required in such circumstances.
The result was that 40% of all the hostages were killed, and another 40% were injured, a staggering tally which is much worse than in any other mass hostage crisis in living memory.
The conclusion is inescapable. Despite massive resources poured into the training of special forces, the Russian officer class still belongs to the generation educated in waging total war on the plains of Europe, rather than the carefully calibrated art of a small amount of firepower, precisely applied for minutes in order to achieve the desired outcome.


Poor coordination
Initial indications suggest that Russia's divided command structure did not help, either.
The Alpha force, for instance, had its own plans to storm the building, but these were not shared with the central intelligence commando units who were also in place, or with the regular troops who provided the security cordon around the school.
It is quite likely, therefore, that some of the victims were hit by cross-fire from those who were supposed to rescue them.
Nor is this blunder unique: in every previous mass hostage situation, Russia's special forces used too much firepower, and used it inefficiently.
This was the case with a hospital hostage crisis in the Caucasus in 1995, and with the attempted rescue of hostages in a Moscow theatre building in October 2002.
In all such cases, a huge percentage of the hostages perished; sadly, the Russian concept of rescue usually comes in a coffin.


Chechnya bloodbath
Yet the blunders of the Russian military extend much further, and encompass not only the response to terrorist attacks, but also the strategy of preventing these attacks from taking place.
During the last 10 years of a vicious war in Chechnya, thousands of young, inexperienced Russian soldiers were sent into unfamiliar territory where they were instantly slaughtered.
Moscow, in turn, responded by carpet-bombing complete villages and cities.
With each day that passed, the opportunity to for a peaceful settlement faded even further into the distance.
In Chechnya, destroyed towns are now inhabited almost exclusively by old people, abandoned by younger men who escaped to the mountains to continue fighting.
A great deal of the suicide bombers and terrorists now are women - the so-called "Black Widows" - sisters of dead Chechen fighters, sworn to avenge their own families, even at the cost of their own lives.
If there was ever a surer way of encouraging further terrorism, the Russian military has invented it.
Widespread corruption and demoralisation among the Russian troops complete this sad picture. In quite a few documented cases, Russian conscripts sold their equipment to intermediaries who then passed it to Chechen separatists.
And checkpoints, set up throughout the turbulent southern Caucasus region in order to hamper the movement of terrorists, are easily circumvented with a small bribe.


Empty promises
In his first reactions after the Beslan school atrocity, President Putin has promised to overhaul his country's entire security arrangements.
But similar promises have been made in the past, and usually with little effect. For the task facing Russia is huge. It is not only one of retraining its special forces, improving co-operation between the various military commands and ministries and getting the military to talk to the security services.
Fundamentally, it is a question of overhauling Russia's entire strategy in the Caucasus, not only in order to meet future terrorist challenges, but ultimately to prevent the creation of new terrorist organisations. The chances still are that nothing of the kind will be accomplished."

Dr Jonathan Eyal is Director of Studies at the Royal United Services Institute in London.

[MrMitty]

Does anyone think this could happen in the UK? I so hope not but is it a danger?

[bigbart]

Of course it COULD happen, but our SF would make a much better job of it.

[Cliodna]

Of course it COULD happen, but our SF would make a much better job of it.

Under the same set of circumstances, who could say for certain that our lot would fair any better.

Even if our lot were ready to go at a moments notice, if they weren't in position when it all kicked off then I can't see that things would be different.

You can't keep blokes at a high state of readiness indefinately.

What happened in Bezlan was tragic, and I don't think that people sitting and nit picking every move that the Russians made is going to help any.
Those terrorists went in there to do exactly what they did, to cause a spectacular, to make everyone in the world sit up and take notice of them and talk about them.....2 plane bombings, a bomb in Moscow and then the atrocity at Bezlan has certainly got people talking.
You know what they say....no such thing as bad publicity

[bigbart]

You're probably right, actually. The Iranian embassy was a different kettle of fish, wasn't it? We've got a new breed of terrorist with no regard for their own life, let alone anyone else's.