Women at War

[El Prez]

Owdun may correct me Kev, but I think National Servicemen could volunteer to serve in particular units, such as the RM in preference to the Pioneers for example.

[K24io]

They did indeed, RM was still a volunteer unit. Therefore its standards were as high as always, however if everyone served today it would lower the standard of the armed forces in general. I'm not saying everyone would be a poor soldier, but the average ability would be lower. RM work with everyone and I'd like to know we were all in it on equal terms.

Owdun may correct me Kev, but I think National Servicemen could volunteer to serve in particular units, such as the RM in preference to the Pioneers for example.

[Andy O'Pray]

I believe that you are correct Rob. If my memory serves me right, the National servicemen that I served with asked specifically to serve in the RM. As Owdun said, some damn fine guys that were in the thick of it with the regulars. They were also pretty good in punch ups down the Gut as well.

Aye - Andy.

[Sticky Blue]

I work with females every dayand my comments are based on the times spent with them.
Texas Ranger's points:
1. There is a chance of this happening if women are captured dependant upon the enemy. In the Gulf... I'd say it is fairly certain.

2. Pregnancy... yes. Happens quite a lot over here.

3. Distraction. Not as much as temptation! Married men and single girls... not a good mixture!

4. Court cases. Has happened but not for the reasons, rape by other ranks, that you give. I won't go any further on this one!

5. Lack of physical ability. They just moved the goal posts for the females. A 16 yr old girl gets the same time for the BFT as a 35 yr old bloke.

6. Facilities. Can be a logistical nightmare if certain females are involved in the op!

7. Morale. In an operational environment the capture scenario would put a downer on the lads because they would feel guilty for allowing HER to get caught and the obvious 'I could handle it better than her' would be in the minds of the lads so morale would suffer. They can however, have a positive effect on morale... when going out for a function the girls can bring as little elegance to the evening. This can also be a negative thing!!

8. Animosity. It works both ways! Why did he get promoted over me syndrome? Positive discrimination against the males 'She got my promotion' etc. Academically they get no quarter in any tests! The test is the test and the result is what you got... nothing added and nothing taken away!

9. The break down of traditions. No... I can't agree! Time moves on. If we want to stick rigidly to traditions we had better go back to the musket!

10. Preferrentialality. Women are given the same tasks as men by female commanders. Women are let off by male commanders because they are women and we are men... it's a genetic thing.

It is in and there is nothing we can do about it; love them or hate them they are there. Some of Isriail's best special forces are female some of their worst are male. Good and bad in all!

[TexasRanger]

K24io- Your reply has the tell tell signs of one where you decided to oppose and systematically went down the list to find reasons for objection. Its common in debate but lacks objectivity. Id like to address your arguments but in a different style.

1. In reference to rape I was referring solely to the treatment of POW's. In the case of this young girl who was captured, I'll bet you a cold beer she endured it. My mind just cant get around the senselessness of it when able bodied men are on the sidelines. And let there be no doubt that her "story" will be played up to no end. You underestimate the U.S. medias lack of understanding of the word hero. Remember 9/11? Everyone within 100 square miles of New York city was a hero by the days end. It was hero this and hero that. Call me crass but I dont see anything heroic about a panicked accountant with a face full of ashes running for his life. Dont misunderstand me though. My hats off to this girl for hanging in there. It literally breaks my heart. I seriously doubt she would have enlisted if presented with the possibility of groups of smelly Arab men taking turns on her in between torture sessions. Just my opinion but it should never happen again.
2. Pregnancy in the military is probably at no more or less a rate than with civilian women. But the fact still stands. Its a complete waste of the money, time and resources that went into training her and it leaves her unit with a one person hole it in everytime it happens. I cant thing of any good that comes from that.
3. I agree with you that distraction is probably marginal. But men are men under any circumstances. I have personally witnesses tensions evolving between 15 men and the only female for miles. Thats just a biological fact. In a war time enviroment efficiency is as importnat as ammo. CO-ED combat patrols are not at a maximum efficiency, period. So the only question is how much deterioration is acceptable. I say none, for the cost is paid in lives.
4. Sexual harrassment in military units is gonna happen. I agree that same sex units would experience violations of rules as well, but in the co-ed arena its just one more think to worry about. Just another tax.
5. The 30 miles a day bit was a little over the top. But you cant argue that extreme service is exhausting even to the strongest men. I guess your only defence on this one, would be to say that women are just as strong as men. You would lose that argument.
6. Even with privacy latrines you still need special ones for the women folk. If you have 3 women in a group of 35-40 men it all starts to get a bit ridiculous. It is definitely a strain on resources. Not logistically impossible but just one more thing to worry about. Just another tax.
8. The affirmative action system is alive and well here. For years white men monopolised the upper echelons. The only way to level the playing field was to give minorities and women a head start on officer testing. It is the single most damaging policy I have ever seen. It totally ruins the legitimacy of earning what you get. Since you dont have racial and gender quotas over there, this has no meaning in a debate between us.
9. You have a point.
10. Preferentiallity may not be a word. But it should be. This point has validity in both directions. Ill leave it for time to tell.

StickY Blue- Fine rebuttal, with some nice touches to it.

[K24io]

Lads, have you got a serious problem ?

If married men and single females ( Sticky you were an idiot to call them girls, suprised someone else hasnt' ripped you to shreds for that!) is problem then you shouldn't be married. I'm not saying people won't be tempted, I'm just saying they should be able to cope. Being tall and handsome - typical RM recruit of course - I've had plenty of fine offers but somehow managed to decline them in order to retain something resembling pride and decorum. Also my girlfriend has a wicked right hook!

Majority of females aren't as strong as males, majority of tank crew aren't as strong as marines.Wow. Horses for courses. not everyone in the forces yomps. Hand to Hand combat is a different ball game altogether, if need any proof I could arrange for you to meet a few female instructors.

Rape on PoW's - you telling me you know for a fact male prisoners would have been safe?

Pregnancy is a problem, but f**k it, deal with it lads, you wouldn't give up your sex life.

Concentration is individuals fault. If you aren't professional enough then you shouldn't be doing it.

I won't even be drawn to comment on the rest, you've listed a pile of problems related to individuals inability to cope with females in the service, not problems with the females themselves.

As for the s***e at the start about deciding to oppose and going down the list. Everything you listed was a pile of cack, I've had better discussions with a giant pile of illumious excrement.If you are going to list points then I'll address them obviously.

By attacking females in the military you are having a dig at many fine service personnel currently risking their lives. They are risking their lives serving their country and deserve a bit more respect than to be labelled as weak, immoral burdens that are only there as a result of poor selection procedures. If you can't cope with females above you in the chain of command then don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

[K24io]

Am I really the only person on this site who agrees with females in the military?

I hope not.

[Sticky Blue]

K24io, as I said I work with females every day and my comments are based on the times spent with them. What females, in the forces, that you hve worked with do you base your comments on? I notice from your profile that you are Student/RMR and you are basing all of your statements on you opinion, just as I am but I have experiance.

Lads, have you got a serious problem ?

No.

Sticky you were an idiot to call them girls

As all the girls in the RM command are under 26 years old and in my opinion they are girls!

If married men and single females is problem then you shouldn't be married.

I take it that the you in your statement above is aimed at men in general and not me personally! My comment was a general comment so therefore I will take it as that was your response. To that point do you now suggest that members of the armed forces should now all be single? I am married and have never been tempted or strayed.

Rape on PoW's -you telling me you know for a fact male prisoners would have been safe?

We have more empathy for a female workmate than a male e.g.
Workmate says 'I don't feel too good' your response will depend upon a number of things... including their gender.

Pregnancy is a problem

Yes and when you say deal with it we do! It takes 2.5 years to train one of ours and the gestation period for a human is 9 months. Take away the fact that they cannot work in the 'front line' for half of that time and we loose them for 3 years which gives us a shortge of 1 rank for 3 years!

By attacking females in the military you are having a dig at many fine service personnel currently risking their lives. They are risking their lives serving their country and deserve a bit more respect than to be labelled as weak, immoral burdens that are only there as a result of poor selection procedures.

Ref above! Am I attacking females? No, I am simply passing comment on my experiances working with them!
Did I say weak? No, I simply said that they do not perform to the same standards as their male counterparts and the goal posts were moved for them.
There are plenty of females in the chain of command above me and I don't have any problem with them as they all do the job they are doing very well. The topic of this post was women at war... some of my comments are about peace time but could equally be applied to a war scenario.

don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

Unlike you I am on the inside and can be hit by the door on my way out. If I were you I'd be careful of the door on your way in!
Edited by self! 13.17 04/04

[North Sea Tigress]

Okay, enough is enough. I can't sit and read this tosh and keep quiet for one minute more!!!

FUBAR is possibly the only person who has said anything worth reading so far (possibly explaining why he is FUBAR!) Women are not the same as men, you may have noticed this. Just the same as not all men are the same. Horses for courses, put the right shaped pin in the right shaped hole and you will have a strong and effective force. Separate latrines issue...what is all that about? Out here in the North Sea, I would have no chance of such luxuries. Onboard a warship, we were fortunate enough to have separate facilities, but that was a CVS, not sure what it's like on survey vessels etc. As for all the pity and guilt trips and gawping, just proving the weaknesses of men...mind and flesh. Women have a nasty genetic ability to be cold blooded and evil without letting emotions cloud the issue. Just because you all have fluffy mothers and sisters and aunties, let them loose in a room full of drug pushers and see what happens. Sorry, not my most eloquent post, but I don't compose well through a red mist!!

[Sticky Blue]

Women have a nasty genetic ability to be cold blooded and evil without letting emotions cloud the issue

True. I'm not saying women are weaker but they are different. We have different strengths and weakness' as individuals, by gender, by race etc.
Women can multi task as well... perhaps that is why they are the best nurses, doctors, logistical workers etc.

[Sully]

Sticks and NST, I know a woman who is a fully paid up and bona fide member of the SF club in London - I know she's gen because I know someone in the Corps who worked with her. She has said much the same to me as you've said above. By the way, she speaks more highly of Royal than probably any other regiment/corps - because they were in her view generally top soldiers but such decent men as well (and not so prone to write her off just because she's a woman).

What really got up my nose was that some old-school duffer at work said to her "you were in the Army, can you shoot?" She actually held the CQB range record at Hereford when she left - which didn't go down well. She can't talk about what she's done and her achievements will forever remain unknown but it makes me so angry when she's not taken seriously as a former soldier.

Back to the point though - I reckon I could take her in a pub-brawl.

[Sticky Blue]

I reckon I could take her in a pub-brawl.

Why not take her on a pub crawl?

Women are brilliant in the forces in certain positions but, honestly I don't feel that majority of them should be on the front line. There are exceptions like your SF woman, she's probably a babe as well, but these are few and far between. They are the exception rather than the rule.

[Sully]

erm...which positions would that be then Sticky Is there a confession in the making

[barryc]

K24io,

I think that when Ranger refers to rape he is referring to the rape of POWs, which has long been a feature of the degradation process of women (and sometimes men,) POWs. I for one would hate to think of a female colleague undergoing such an ordeal as a rag head gang bang and would far prefer that she had not been in a situation that allowed that to happen. The way we lived in the field sometimes I wouldn't wish on my best mate ( Oh yes, my best mate was a bootie too and was there, never mind), and certainly not on my wife, daughters or any other woman. Then I am just an old fashioned man who sees the protection of the female as part of my reason for being.


Barry

[Guest]

To Northsea Tigress when i left the service i went back to my plumbing and a company in Gt YARMOUTH employed me to go offshore to install a wc and shower because they had employed a Geneologist a female one so the right companies do consider thier staff this was a german drilling company aswell