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AS LEBANON BURNS ( WHERE THE F..K IS MR BLAIR )

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df2inaus
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Israel and Lebanon

Post by df2inaus »

Sarastro,
Israel is perfectly capable of showing restraint, as Ariel Sharon demonstrated in his latter days as PM. The current Israeli response is totally disproportionate, as most Israeli military action has been for a very long time, there is absolutely no arguing with that, it is simple logical fact. The only question is whether you believe disproportionate response is justified in their situation.
I never dreamt that Ehud Olmert would take action like this, he was supposed to be the centrist politician who roared up the middle ground leaving Labour and Likud in the dust.

A professor at Sandhurst said Israel was like a see-saw, it tilts from peace to security. When Israeli citizens are leaning towards security, military action will follow and damn the consequences of what the world thinks.

df2inaus
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Sarastro
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Re: Israel and Lebanon

Post by Sarastro »

df2inaus wrote:I never dreamt that Ehud Olmert would take action like this, he was supposed to be the centrist politician who roared up the middle ground leaving Labour and Likud in the dust.
To be perfectly honest, and this is pure speculation on my part, it looks like the result of having politicians in the top positions (PM, Defence) who aren't ex-military.

Not only is Olmert keen to prove security credentials, unneccessary for ex-generals like Sharon & co, but it smells very much to me like he let the generals off the leash, and now they are executing every operation they have wanted over the last five years as quickly as possible before he changes his mind. It's also possible that lack of experience with military top command means he just doesn't know how to put them back in the box or restrain them.

Like I said, pure speculation, but it has happened before, and wouldn't surprise me at all if it happened here.
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Post by JoJo82 »

Me and a few others went down to Larnaca on Saturday to help with handing out food and clothes that we had raised money for at work.

There are so many kids with out families, who knows if they are coming over on another ship or if they were killed.

The majority of hotels have been occupied by Lebanese and the UN have opened their gates up to place tents etc to re-home others.

It is very sad to see, Limmasol and Larnaca are full up at this moment in time.
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Tab
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Post by Tab »

Kiwi..1998...Just look what the Germans did in France while trying to get the the beacheads at Normandy.
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Post by harry hackedoff »

Kiwi, very funny. Not
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright. Till you hear them speak 8)

I had this today in a regular Newsletter I subscribe to.

Quote

Humanitarian crisis in Lebanon

25 July 2006

In the midst of a humanitarian crisis in Lebanon brought on by Israeli military strikes, Y Care International has pledged financial support to its partner, the YMCA of Lebanon, as it works to provide medical care, basic supplies and food to affected communities.
The YMCA is working through its network of medical clinics and dispensaries to give essential medical help, food and basic supplies to those in need.

While we recognise the importance of a multilateral, co-ordinated aid effort, Y Care International is calling on international donors not to overlook local NGOs, like the YMCA, which are in an ideal position to provide timely relief to the affected population.


Our long-term civic empowerment work in Lebanon now at risk
The attacks on Lebanon have also devastated one of Y Care International's long-term projects in the country, unravelling crucial work with disadvantaged young people to rebuild civil society after the civil war.

Unquote

When non-partisan organisations like Y Care start pointing the finger at Israel, it`s a bit rich to carry on saying they have every right etc.
They don`t have every right. Tab is right to compare the Israelis to the way Herman performed on his World Tour.
Will any of them be appearing at the World Court anytime soon, on War Crimes charges?
I wouldn`t hold me breath.
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Post by anglo-saxon »

Like most problems such as this, once it has passed a generation it is engrained into the society and mindsets are extremely hard to change. The current excesses of Israel are but a minor symptom of a very much larger problem. The two soldiers that were kidnapped were simply an excuse. Kidnappings and murders happen all the time on both sides. A bigger issue here is that Israel is getting away with it because of US backing.

The Arab/Muslim world is in the state it is in today, with the world having to take a big bite of that shyte sandwich, for a variety of reasons. In the post-Roman empire power vacuum, while the Angles, Saxons, Freisians, and Jutes were busy attacking Britain, The Moors (originally of the Western Sahara) were growing in power (they had been rebelling aginst the Romans as early as 398). The Roman term for Moor is "Maur" from which we get "Mauritania".

Almost concurrently, we see the emergence, growth and rapid spread of Islam and so the Moorish empire was also ultimately the Muslim empire. It spread east into the 'stans and west as far as Spain (conquered in 711). Even Charlemagne's forces and the Vikings were unable to unseat the the Moors. Overlapping was the growth of the Ottoman empire (1299-1923), eventually covering much of the same territory except, notably, Spain, which was gradually re-taken by "Christans" in the 14th Century. The Ottoman empire also reached far into what is now south eastern europe into the Balkans (a Turkish word meaning "a chain of wooded mountains), Hungary, Poland, and even lay seige to Vienna, twice!

So, much of what is now considered the "west" was in fact governed by Muslims at one time or another for many centuries. The final nail in the coffin of the Ottoman empire was WW1, when Turkey made the mistake of backing the loser.

As Europe's power increased, so the might and grandeur of the formerly great muslim states rapidly declined, even to the point where such western states (previosuly deemed to be populated by inferior people by the Muslims) became the masters of many of the Muslim lands. Post independence brought little releif for most Islamic states, many of whose leaders tried to mimic western styles of govenrment and culture to "get ahead". Clearly, this didn't work well for them, Perisa being a prime example. The backlash of modern Islaminc extremism eminates directly from that source.

Now, we have the same poor, peasant Muslims (just dressed in western clothes, these days), being fed a diet of propoganda, false hope, and all manner of anti-western, anti-Iraeli, and anti-US rhetoric, who know no better than to become "soldiers of God". This mindset, perpetuated at an alarmingly increasing rate (stories abound of "schools" on places such as Pakistan where "students" are essentially conditioned against the west) is unlikely to go away any time soon. Combone this with the west's haughty attitude and "war on terror" drivel and we have at best a certainty of the status quo, and at worst a likelihood of a decline into a greater and greater global problem. I personally see the latter occuring in one form or another.

I saw Blair on BBC World a couple of nights ago with the Iraqi deputy prime minister. Blair was, unquestionably, a dithering fool. Unable to address questions eloquently, and clearly lost as far as being able to speak without a script is concerned. What a boob!

The UK has no business having anything to do with an international force in the region. Neither does Canada or any other country aligned with the US. What's required in, my opinion, is a buffer zone manned by totally impartial (if such a thing exists these days) countries' forces. Perhaps non-musilm SE Asian counties could do it. Israel needs to wind its neck in. The US needs to stop playing world cop and do likewise (a cessasation of openly backing Israeli excesses wouldn't hurt either). The Lebanese government needs to openly condemn and outlaw Hezbollah and be active in stopping the growth of local terr cells itself, if it is to be taken seriously by the west.
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Post by Frank S. »

Comments from the former US amb. to Saudi Arabia and former asst. secretary of defense for international security affairs Chas Freeman (contrast this with Bush's comments to Blair):

The assumption in Israel and here is that Iran and Syria put Hezbollah up to its provocative gesture of solidarity with the beleaguered Palestians in Gaza. The assumption in the Arab world is that the U.S. put Israel up to what it is doing in Gaza and Lebanon. Both assertions remain politically convenient assertions that are almost certainly wrong. There is no evidence for either.
The relationship between Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran is analogous to that between Israel and the United States. Syria is the quartermaster and Iran the external financier and munitions supplier to Hezbollah; we play all three roles in support of Israel.

There is no reason to believe that Hezbollah, which is an authentic expression of Lebanese Sh'ia nationalism birthed by the Israeli occupation of south Lebanon in 1982, is any less unilateralist or prone to consult its patrons before it does things it sees as in its interest than Israel, which is an authentic expression of Jewish nationalism birthed by European racism, is in relation to us.

Remember the assertions that Vietnamese expansionism was controlled and directed by the Chinese? similar stuff. Chinese backing for the Viet Minh and the Hanoi regime did not equate to Chinese control or direction of North Vietnam, its armed forces, or its agents in South Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. Consider the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese war.

The irony now is that the most likely candidate to back Hezbollah in the long term is no longer Iran but the Arab Shiite tyranny of the majority we have installed in Baghdad. But that will not mean that the successors of Nouri Al-Maliki control Sheikh Nasrullah. Sometimes clients direct the policies of their patrons, not the other way around. This is a point exemplified by the dynamic of Israeli-American relations but far from unique to them.
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Post by Sarastro »

I find the Israeli offer re: peacekeepers today most interesting. Namely, that they want a 20,000 strong international peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon before they withdraw their troops.

In comparison: the US has approx 19,500 men in Afghanistan. All non-US coalition forces in Iraq comprise under 25,000 men. The British Army full operational strength is 100,000 men...

20,000 is a pie in the sky number. They know full well that US is overstretched already, as are NATO allies. They also know that it will be hard enough getting sympathetic allies to deploy troops anywhere around Israel, getting troops from unsympathetic nations (ie France), who are the only ones not deployed in Iraq/Afghanistan, will be tantamount to impossible. So NATO is out, and the EU unable and/or unwilling. The UN? 20,000 men would be double the size of the largest current UN deployment. It would take twice the men that the largest UN contributor (India) have assigned to UN peacekeeping. The UN isn't sending 20,000 men anywhere. Even if they would, Israel has no faith in the current UN deployment, UNIFIL - they don't want the UN in there.

And think about that figure of 20,000 men compared to the operation. Lebanon is 10,000 km2, complete. Half that means 20,000 men for an area roughly 4% of the size of England - not the UK, England. It's smaller than Yorkshire, Devon, Norfolk...20,000 men in that area isn't a peacekeeping force, it's an occupying force - do they need a platoon in every village? We have squads of < 10 Paras holding isolated villages alone, 50-100 miles apart, against Taliban attacks in Afghanistan for feck's sake. Nobody is deploying that force to that area.

Israel is asking the impossible from the international community, which essentially means they are saying that their troops are going to stay in southern Lebanon.
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Post by Kiwi1988 »

LMAO Harry, yeah I never said I was bright, god I'm a nurse afterall. :o

Yeah we sit opposite sides of the fence on this one, so I will just shut up :wink:
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Post by Prm »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 217176.stm

Israel troops 'ignored' UN plea
Israeli strike in Khiam, south Lebanon
Israel had hit Khiam a number of times earlier on Tuesday
UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.

The post was hit by a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling nearby, diplomats familiar with the initial probe into the deaths say.

The news came as crisis talks in Rome failed to call for an immediate ceasefire between Hezbollah and Israel.

Reports say up to 13 Israeli soldiers died in the latest fighting.

The four unarmed UN observers from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, died after their UN post was hit by an Israeli air strike on Tuesday.

The UN report says each time the UN contacted Israeli forces, they were assured the firing would stop.

Israel is conducting an investigation into the deaths, and has rejected accusations made by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan that the targeting of the UN position was "apparently deliberate".

In southern Lebanon, fierce clashes have continued between Israeli forces and Hezbollah fighters around the town of Bint Jbail.

Israel has not confirmed any deaths from among its soldiers, but says there have been 20 casualties.
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Post by anglo-saxon »

One of the four UN peacekeepers killed was a Canadian. If the Ireaelis were deliberately trying to alientae themselves, they could not be doing a better job. I have no love for eaither side. As far as I am concerned, those w2ankers were all made for each other. All I care about is the "ripple effect" around the eorld and the fcat that innocnets are caught up in it. The Yids are really starting get my goat, though. Their arrogance is fuelled by that of the US.

I have a Lebanese cleaning lady who cleans my offcie every morning. She and he Cuban husband clean our building. She was in tears talking to me yesterday, about how she had asked Canadian immigration to get her brother and his family out of the Lebanon and was told,"no". Id didn't help that her oldest sone is stuck in Cuba after having his wallet and ll of his ID stolen on Saturday.

She is clearly an intelligent, articulate lady, with a contemplative mind, who cares for her family. So she's a Muslim. I have seen he often chat to a former CSM here, who is as Jewish as they come. Both just good, orinary folk, who share one huge commonality: They are not extremists.

Whjat can one possibly say to a person such as this, except to offer a few words of support and thin reassurance?

The UN needs to ignore the US completely and establish a neutral, multi-natioal security force in a buffer zone ASAP! If land needs to be taken for it, ten take it! This needs to include a monitored no-go zone out at sea, as well as a no-fly zone. At least it will stop the immediate carnage!
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Post by Frank S. »

Speaking of "ripple effects" and the law of unintended consequences.... But still, the sky ain't falling just yet.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13990129/site/newsweek/

The Next Front
Pressure is building on Ankara to deal more harshly with cross-border terrorist attacks from Iraq
.
By Owen Matthews and Sami Kohen
Newsweek International
July 31, 2006 issue - Israel launched airstrikes on Lebanon in response to attacks by Hizbullah earlier this month, and George W. Bush called it "self-defense." But what to tell the Turks, who over the last week lost 15 sol-diers to terror attacks launched by sepa-ratist Kurds from neighboring Iraq? Many Turkish leaders are pressing for cross-border tactical air assaults on the guerrillas. But Bush, fearing yet another escalation of the Middle East's violence, urged Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to hold off. "The message was, unilateral action isn't going to be helpful," says a senior U.S. official, describing the 15-minute phone conversation. "The president asked for patience."
And so Turkish forces are holding fast—for now—in deference to their half-century alliance with the United States. But that patience is bound to be challenged, probably sooner than later. Domestic political pressures are building to take a leaf from Israel's book and hit back at the guerrillas of the Kurdistan Work-ers' Party, or PKK. Since the beginning of the year, attacks on Turkish military garrisons and police stations have esca-lated across the country's southeast, along with random shootings, bombings and protests—many of them, authorities suspect, organized in Iraq. Already the Turkish military has laid detailed plans for possible helicopter-and-commando assaults, government sources tell NEWSWEEK. Meanwhile, Ankara's frustration with Washington has grown palpable. For all the Bush administration's repeated promises to crack down on the PKK, little if anything has happened. With elections coming next year, Erdogan could be pardoned for soon concluding that his forbearance might prove politically dangerous. "Moderate, liberal people in Turkey are becoming increasingly anti-American," warns Turkey's Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul. "That isn't good."

Erdogan has built a career on skillfully riding populist waves, and he's not going to miss this one. On the one hand, he recognizes the importance of maintaining good relations with America, if only to foil critics who lambaste him for being too Islamist. On the other, popular anger at the PKK is getting explosive. At the funeral of a murdered soldier in Izmir last week, crowds destroyed wreaths sent by Erdogan's Interior Minister Abdulkadir Aksu and the city's governor, Oguz Kaan Koksal. Some mourners chanted slogans accusing the government of cooperating with the PKK. And when a group of 60 human-rights activists were arrested in the resort of Kiyikoy on suspicion of being PKK sympathizers last week, locals attacked the detainees with stones and iron bars.

The Turkish press has been baying for action, with even the solidly pro-American Turkish Daily News railing in an editorial that "Turkey is no banana republic that can leave its security to the mercy of others." Another editorial posed the question more directly. "Why is it that Israel has the right to 'self-defense'," the paper asked, "and not Turkey." The country's usually fractious parliamentary opposition, in a rare moment of unity, called for active intervention. "Opposition," says True Path Party leader Mehmet Agar, "ends at Habur"—Turkey's border crossing with Iraq.
Can Washington keep the lid on this bubbling pot? Not for long, many experts fear. Despite past assurances, the U.S. military has been unwilling or unable to mount operations against the guerrillas. With its hands full elsewhere, Washington can realistically offer little more than in-telligence-sharing, coupled with possible measures to cut off PKK funding. That's just not enough, says a senior Erdogan aide: "We want action, not words." Nor can the Turks expect much from the Iraqis. "We will not tolerate any terrorist groups on the territory of Iraq," Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshir Zebari told NEWSWEEK. But even he acknowledges that it may be a while before the government's security forces get around to dealing with the PKK. By contrast, Iran last week began shelling PKK positions around Kandil Mountain on northern Iraq's Iranian and Turkish border. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also called Erdogan to assure him of Teh-ran's willingess to help quell the guerrillas —unlike the United States.

This won't automatically lead to another front in the region's wars. For all the clamor for a military strike, "the sane members of the Turkish General Staff are aware of the costs of going into northern Iraq," says independent analyst Grenville Byford. Those include possible all-out civil disorder across Turkey's Kurdish southeast provinces—which, if rioting this spring is anything to go by, would lead to a brutal crackdown, hurting Ankara's hopes for joining the EU. "There is no good way out of this for the Turkish government," says Byford.

All this comes at a bad time, clearly. Turkey could play a key diplomatic role in dealing with the burgeoning crisis in southern Lebanon, NATO officials say, especially if Turkey were willing to provide troops to the sort of international force being promoted by France and other European leaders, including Tony Blair. Not only are Turks Muslims, which should reduce frictions with the local population, but Ankara also enjoys good working relations with many of the countries and forces active behind the scenes. As one of Damascus's few friends in the region, for example, Ankara would be in a good position to rein in Syrian ambitions in Leba-non. Erdogan has been trying to play the role of mediator with Iran, Israel and the Palestinians as well—precisely why Turkey would "encourage and support" an international peacekeeping force, says Foreign Ministry spokesman Namik Tan.
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Post by Mrs. Frank S. »

Sadly, the UN cannot ignore the U.S. and do what is needed as my country has veto power. :(

I too have a friend who is Lebanese (Christian). Though I know his immediate family is stateside, I'm sure he still has plenty of family left over there.

BTW, there was a protest at the Israeli Embassy last week. It was a group of Jews who were protesting Israel's bombing of Lebanon. Not everyone over here likes what is happening. I think Israel has done a lot to destroy their standing in the world.

Julie
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Post by Prm »

It would appear that the German's are out of the picture for the Border protection force.

So that rules the EU 3 out then, the British are too overstreched as it is, the French (appear) to be firmly on the side of the Lebonese and the Germans are unwilling to put themselves in a situation where they may have to shoot a Jew.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5217438.stm

Who is willing to step up to the plate?
:-? :-?
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Post by Frank S. »

Probably the French, but with so many of its soldiers on deployment elsewhere, they'd have a hard time scrounging up 3000 troops right now. Besides they wouldn't send troops until a cease-fire agreement was reached in the first place, and we're far from that.

The Turks could contribute and possibly even take the lead. A tick in the box of their continuing effort to join the EU. But as the article above states, they're having their own security issues with the spillover from Iraq.
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