Ireland

[josephwells]

Having had my comments ridiculed(i'm a british citizen, before you start!)

How easy for some of these contributors to moralise( Ben chung, Loz) and place wholly un-realistic moral conditions to an armed group fighting for, as they see it, their freedom.They do not have any grand designs on empire, no, just civil rights and an end to undemocratic partition of their own country. And what is the usual response to trying to have a rational debate? Shock!Horror! Support the IRA, or even say anything that faintly sympathises with them and your lynched by the mob! Well i'm sorry. I cannot swallow in hypocracy. I am well aware, as I am sure(privately) many of these contributors are of Britain's horrendous, violent campaigns in Ireland over many centuries. It is and MUST be a source of deep shame to all of us who profess love of Britain. We are not all a nation of racist, colonial, war-mongers, who see our violence in foreign cultures as the only legitimate violence! This notion is incredibly shared by many of the posters on this site!
The image of the IRA portrayed, is one of the most evil groups in the history of mankind(when discussing Ireland, one becomes used to this irrational hysteria), but statistically they have been responsible for around 1800 deaths over a 30 year period. We as a nation were probably responsible for similar carnage in a 30 DAY period in Iraq recently.Then again, they were just moslems. Secondly, they never had the petulance to challenge our authority in their country.
I love britain, it is my home. But equally, I am willing to reappraise our history. That will make us strong. IRA terrorism? Some of these posters are totally redundant in terms of any positive contribution they might make towards a better future. Their vilification of irish republicans is falling on deaf ears. It is solely a platform for their own out-workings of supremacist delusion. The future is a lot brighter than these particular nay-sayers would have us believe!

As said before I am not a republican sympathiser, just a realist living in a part of the UK that the rest of the Uk does not care about.

[Tab]

Just what are you implying, that the IRA may kill you but you must not kill the IRA, Are we supposed to stand and cheer when they kill a friend and colleague. Did British troops take prisoners, where they allowed visits from their family's? where they all badly beaten, I wonder what your reply to this is?. Now what about the IRA when they captured a British soldier, what did he have to look forward, days of torture and death, and yet you are trying to get things in prospective. When ever you have this discussion with any one from the IRA they then complain about things that happened 800 years, just how far do you go back. If a British person states any thing about WW 2 and us standing alone against Hitlers Hordes we are told to grow up and forget and that it was years ago and the worlds moved on since then. How is it that they can pull up any part of history that suites them but we are not allowed to the same.
Now before you wonder my connection with all this I was a former member of the Parachute Regiment who married a girl from southern Ireland whose uncles held senior positions in the IRA, now if we can get on okay together with out changing our positions, there must be some hope for every one along the line.

[spitz]

They do not have any grand designs on empire, no, just civil rights and an end to undemocratic partition of their own country.

Wow, that’s a rather romanticised view of the IRA as ‘ honourable freedom fighters’. The IRA and all their political and military offshoots are Marxist in ideology, the one thing they hope to achieve is a Marxist utopia for all. Look at who they trained and have links with - Hizballah, ETA, FARC, Red Brigades, PLO etc. - All cut from the same cloth and all Marxist-Leninist who’s aim is to overthrow democracy and insert their own ideology and build a new Soviet empire.

Civil rights? Hahaaaaa,I’m sure they were thinking about civil rights as they nailed some kids knees to a barn door or blew up sleeping babies in their prams. The IRA as civil libertarians takes the biscuit you must have an overactive imagination!

Ireland has never been a country and certainly never united, a year after the Battle of Hastings the Normans invaded Southern Ireland and before that the Irish were a bunch of tribes fighting each other. Ireland was never partitioned because it was never unified.

I am well aware, as I am sure(privately) many of these contributors are of Britain's horrendous, violent campaigns in Ireland over many centuries.

Grrr, Evil British Empire. Of course despicable acts were perpetrated in Ireland over the centuries, every country that has fielded an army has committed desperate and unsavoury acts, but even Cromwell (the worst offender?) in 1641 sent troops to Ireland to stop the Irish slaughtering each other. What makes the horrors of Ireland even worse is you viewing a 15th century (or 16th, 17th . . . ) massacre with a 21st Century morality and no understanding of the harsh realities of the times.

similar carnage in a 30 DAY period in Iraq

Claire Short would love this, much better to have left Saddam in power to kill 100,000 every year for another 10 years.

I am willing to reappraise our history . . . The future is a lot brighter than these particular nay-sayers would have us believe!

Revisionist, hand-wringing liberal stuff, screw it lets forget any idea of national pride and lets all bow our heads in disgrace once a year, lets have a day of atonement where we can parade our shame of Britain and Empire.

[Andy O'Pray]

I believe that this topic has been covered in great depth before. I would only refer you to the latest Northern Ireland election results.

Aye - Andy.

[BenChug]

josephwells,

Should we as British Citizens have our soldiers doing work in North Ireland? As last time I checked N. Ireland was part of the British Empire are you from Eire? They are not there to make war they are there to try and stop a pathetic Civil War from breaking out onto the streets.

The problem is not with the English, the Scottish, the Welsh, the Irish or the Commenwealth soldiers with UK forces that patrol the street they are not there to shoot and kill, they do not walk into a bar and drag out men woman children and shoot them, do not intend to hurt civilians, do not poisen tea and give it to the 'enemy.' In Eire it is people like you who are the problem sympathising with a bunch of murdering bastards, on both sides there is Catholic and Protastant terrorists and that is what they are terrorists but the soldiers there are trying to keep the peace not ruin it. The very fact that you would argue on behalf of these monsters makes me physically sick. What freedom is it that they seek!?! they pray to the same god, one just has a fancier church. They want to be there own country? part of regular old Ireland? It is not the number of deaths that truly count but the manner of these deaths and who died and why. British soldiers don't go out and say O'Pray (Good Irish sounding name Andy ) is in the bar lets blow it up. Have you ever seen a real war or the effects of one? I have seen people shot in Bosnia for wearing a turban and praising a different god its all bullshit these stupid little cesspool fights disgust me. The complete disregard for life is what is really the issue here, you will find little or no support for your salute to the IRA here. Saddam was a monster was the war in Iraq justified yes, not for weapons of mass destruction but because he was a weaker version of Hitler, who slayed his own people, with chemical weapons and a ruthless intent.

Maybe you should learn about what the IRA does to it's enemies then take a look at what happens from the Army's side.

[Andy O'Pray]

BenChug, O'Prey is a good sounding Irish name. O'Pray is a good sounding Western Scottish, NW Engish name. I won't get into the genealogy as it is quite complicated, goes back to Picts and Scots.

Aye -Andy.

[Andy O'Pray]

A statement that has always stuck in my mind. On my first tour of NI I spoke to an old Protestant Irishman, his words to me were, "Son, if you had been 48 hours later in coming, you need not have bothered coming at all." If we had not we would not be having this discussion today.

That is why we came.

Aye - Andy.

[BenChug]

Its all in the O' mate

Agreed the genes are all aboot and not worth the time following.

War is generally stupid and to quote Hemingway

- "Never think that war no matter how justified is not a crime."

Civil war is the worst of all.

[Ploggers]

Just to clarify, IRA ; are we talking about the ideologically recruited version or the just plain old gangster version?

In the old days they were murdering scum and now they are thieving, drug pushing, pimping, murdering scum.. I suppose thats what they call progress.

[lew]

its simple really...


IRA = terrorists
Terrorists = lowest form of life, (scum)
What should happen to said scum, they should be wiped out...

josephwells, you need to get your head screwed on straight, the IRA don’t deserve Ireland, and should be treated the way they treat a British soldier if ever they get the chance to take one...



lew

[Jason The Argonaut]

Terrorists = lowest form of life, (scum)

Lew the lowest form of life as you put it are Terrorists and Labour.

What should happen to said scum, they should be wiped out...

I'm with you on both 100%

[josephwells]

Gentlemen, thank you for your views, I am impressed by the knowledge available on this site.

[josephwells]

josephwells, you need to get your head screwed on straight, the IRA don’t deserve Ireland, and should be treated the way they treat a British soldier if ever they get the chance to take one...

I am not an IRA sympathizer by any means, I was told what I have put forward by a republican, I am keen to point out that when I went back to him with your views as my own he listenened but had no real comebacks apart from the normal crap about war,brits etc, I have seen through his shallow opinions, of particular interest was the prisoners of war issue i.e what the provos did with our soldiers, he couldnt realy give me a balanced answer here either. I asked him why, when the IRA had conducted the DAAD (direct action against grugs) campaign in the late 80's it was still possible (even after they had killed several people and supposedly cleared the streets on the subject) to buy drugs openly in the areas they controlled, once again he had no real answers....draw your own conclusions.

Thanks to all for your views I respect them and will ask you more in time.

[Rogue Chef]

Ahoy there!
This subject has been done to death (no pun intended), and it will always provoke robust debate.
I have no sympathy with terrorists of any persuasion, but can sometimes see the reasoning behind their efforts (still no excuse for the vile acts of cowardice, eg. chaining a civilian man into his car, filling it full of HME and ordering him to drive to a PVCP, then detonating it when the soldiers on duty tried to free him).
There would be many who would ask those of us who have served to question our own actions or the actions of the Governments we act on behalf of. Fair enough, no-one is perfect.
BUT...................
I always reserve a special place in my heart for the terrorist's perpensity for spectacular demonstrations of "shooting ones self in the foot episodes". They mostly fail to appreciate the delicious side-splitting irony.
For example; a well known Republican activist and Sinn Fein personality was involved in an incident where a community bus full of locals from the Creggan Estate collided with a black taxi. Both vehicles were written off and many whiplash claims ensued.
It transpired that the said Republican had been instrumental in organising this 'accident' in order to acquire a new coach, new taxi and put a few quid in everyones pocket.
He was 'stood down' for bringing the Republican movement into disrepute!!!!!

[Typically Irish]

There was a day (IRB times) when they stood for defense of catholicism... but these days I think they merely stand for profit.

I hate getting involved in discussions about Ireland as I am passionate about it, however I have been mildly amused at the views shared in these threads and at the mainly unbiased views aired. Good job guys

However it is my belief that Ireland should be Ireland. I think in this day and age British Colonialism is not PC so to speak. Cut them free them, let them fight it out for themselves.