Agincourt

[Frank S.]

I'm pasting this post of Harry's here because:
1 - it's a great read
2 - it was originally posted in 'political affairs' where some may not see it.





It rained for most of the night turning the ground sodden with ankle deep mud in some places.

Both armies rose before dawn and assembled for battle, the English numbering 5000 archers and 900 men-at-arms and the French between 20-30,000. The rules of chivalry dictate that the field of battle should favor neither side but the French freely took up a position that was disadvantageous to them. They assembled perhaps 1000 yards apart, separated by a recently ploughed field. A slight dip between them ensured that the armies were in full view of each other. Either side of the field was bordered by forest that narrowed from 1200 yards where the French assembled to only 900 where the armies could be expected to meet. This greatly restricted the free movement that the French would require to exploit their far greater numbers, preventing them from outflanking and enveloping the smaller force.


The English formed into a single line, with no reserves, into three groups of men-at-arms, comprising the advance, mainbody and rearguard, each around four deep. The right was commanded by the Duke of York, the center by Henry and the left by Lord Camoys. There is some debate as to the formation of archers. The traditional view is that each the three groups of men-at-arms were separated by a large wedge of archers with a body of archers on each flank. This would allow the archers to fire on the French not only from the front but also the flank. More recent research suggests that this would have considerably weakened the line. If heavily armed men-at-arms were to come in contact with a body of lightly armed archers, they could be expected to quickly disperse them breaking the line. As such, the archers would have been positioned on the flanks, in accordance with usual English practice, 2,500 to a side, angled forward to allow converging fire on any attack to the lines center.1. This formation was to have important consequences later in the battle.

It is possible that a small formation of archers may have been positioned in the Tramcourt woods to the rear of the French lines. Its role would be to cause confusion in the French ranks and divert troops from the main battle. As the French advanced to make contact with the main English body, they would also have been in a position to provide flanking fire. The existance of such a force has been vigorously denied by English chroniclers.


The French formed three lines, the first two made up of dismounted men-at-arms and the third mounted. Cavalry was placed on each flank, 1600 commanded by the Count of Vendome on the left and 800 commanded by Clignet de Brebant on the right. On the flanks to the rear, some ineffectual cannon were placed that never fired more than a few shots during the battle. Between the first and second lines were placed the archers and crossbowmen. The reality of the French lines, however, was far different. Every French nobleman wanted to be in the first line and to have his banner prominently displayed. This resulted in much jostling for position, crowding out the archers and crossbowmen to the flanks so that the first two lines became more or less one large chaotic mass. "The strength of the armies of Philip and John of Valais was composed of a fiery and undisciplined aristocracy that imagined itself to be the most efficient military force in the world, but was in reality little removed from an armed mob"2.


The two sides thus assembled, waited unmoving for four hours from about 7am to about 11am. The wise counsel of d'Albret and Boucicaut prevailed, at least temporarily, arguing that they should let the English attack where their inferior numbers would have placed them at a greater disadvantage. In fact, it was argued that they should not attack at all and let the English starve. In such a way, the English would be defeated without having to give battle. The French, still confident of victory, used this time to jostle for position, eat, settle quarrels and throw insults at the English. While many sat, some remained standing as not to muddy their armor. One thousand yards away, Henry knew that they would have to fight that day as his troops, without food, would only get weaker. On council from his advisors, he ordered the English advance





The English quietly and steadily advanced on the French position to within extreme longbow range (approx. 250 yards). To advance in good order, this would have taken up to ten minutes. If the French had attacked during this period, it would have been disatrous for the English. Having gained information that the French intended to attack his archers with massed cavalry, Henry had ordered each archer to carve an eight foot long stake, pointed at each end. Upon reaching their position, the archers drove their stakes into the ground at such an angle as to impale a horse as it charged. These stakes would have been planted in a thicket in the archers positions; dangerous for a mounted rider to enter but offering enough space for a lightly armed archer to freely move. Within this thicket, the archers would have stood in a loose belt with their flanks resting against the woods.

At the order, the archers let loose the first arrow strike. The "air was darkened by an intolerable number of piercing arrows flying across the sky to pour upon the enemy like a cloud laden with rain." While this may not have caused too much damage, having been fired from extreme range, it must have produced a deafening thunderclap of noise as it hit the French lines. As an English archer could loose up to ten flights a minute, by the time the first landed another would have been in the air. In the confusion of what had just happened, amidst the noise of outraged Frenchmen, injured animals and soldiers, the French cavalry on the flanks charged forth, followed by the first line of dismounted men-at-arms.



If it is to retain any sort of order, a cavalry charge can move at only 12-15 miles an hour. It would have taken about 40 seconds to cover the distance to the English lines; enough time for three to four further volleys of arrows. During the morning wait, lax command had allowed many of the cavalry on the flanks to wander off out of position. Caught by surprise by the English assault, the charge was severely undermanned. Moreover, due to the woods on either side of the field, they were unable to outflank the archers necessitating a frontal assault. The few who did reach the lines of archers, perhaps not seeing the stakes in between the mass of archers, crashed straight into the thicket of spikes and were unable to breach the lines. As the survivors retreated in disarray, they were followed by further volleys of arrows. Horses crazed and uncontrollable by injury and fright, with no space to manouver, crashed directly into the advancing men-at-arms breaking their orderly advance.



To march the distance to the English lines would have taken three to four minutes giving some breathing space for the English. This was done over muddy ground further broken up by the mad cavalry charge. As the distance closed, the English archers were able to fire at right angles to their targets. Their arrows were fixed with the "Bodkin point", specially designed to penetrate armor. As the French advanced, they formed into three columns to attack the English men-at-arms. This was partially forced, partially planned. The French men-at-arms saw archers as inferior in social standing and, therefore, not worthy opponents whereas there was ransom to be gained by capturing an English noble. Furthermore, as the French advanced on the English position, the field narrowed by 150 yards compacting the French line. This was compounded by those on the flanks shying away from the hail of arrows pressing further inward. By the time they arrived at the English line, the French did not have enough room to fight freely.


Using lances cut down for fighting on foot, the attacking line would have rushed the last few meters to maximize the shock of impact to knock over the defenders, open gaps in the line, isolate individuals and push back the line in disorder. The English may have stepped back at the last moment to wrongfoot the French spearmen or if they had possessed greater numbers, they may have been able to rush forward themselves to steal the momentum. The French line attacked largely unsupported, in disorder and close to exhaustion from their trudge over broken ground. The French artillery, reduced to a position of impotence by a lack of a clear field of fire, and the archers and crossbowmen, outclassed by the faster, longer and more accurate rate of fire of the longbow, had been pushed out of position by the men-at-arms. When the French reached the English line, it had very little momentum left.

Still, as the two forces clashed, the English line buckled but soon rallied, neither side was willing to give way. The English not willing to leave their secure place for the open battlefield which would mean almost certain annihilation, and the French certain of victory and the force of numbers pushing from behind. With the press of numbers, the French were unable to attack or defend effectively meaning that the English would win in a one on one contest. As the attackers fell, they presented obstacles to those following. As the English pressed forth, cutting through the French attackers, a tumbling effect would have developed where the French were pushed forward from behind but also back by the English. As the shaken French line spilled out towards the archers, the archers downed their bows and grabbed their swords, axes and other weapons, including those dropped by the French, and fell on the flank. The heavily armed men-at-arms would not have been overwhelmed by this onslaught; it is much more likely that the archers in groups of two or three would have singled out those men-at-arms shaken by the initial charge. As one or two attacked the French man-at-arms, the third would maneuver behind to slash at unprotected parts such as behind the knee. Once down, the exhausted knight could be quickly dispatched with a blade through a joint in the armor or through the grills of the faceplate. This would have gradually repeated the tumbling effect on the flanks, lengthening the killing zone and enveloping the French. Many slightly injured, or knocked down were unable to rise through exhaustion, weight of their armor in the mud and were trampled underfoot by the press behind them.

The first French line was almost totally destroyed, either killed or taken prisoner. As the second line arrived on the scene, many quit the battlefield upon seeing the result of the first attack. Those who attacked met largely the same fate. The Duke of Barabant, arriving late to the battle due to a christening party the previous night led a brief charge which was quickly broken up and for which he lost his life.

Contemporary observers describe the piles of French bodies as "as high as a man", an exaggeration, but befitting what had happened. Within half an hour, the first two French lines were annihilated. Henry was careful not to let individuals sequester prisoners as the third French line remained on the field as a very real threat.



As prisoners were moved to the rear, in greater numbers than the whole English army, simultaneous reports came to Henry's attention. A mob of peasants with three knights under the command of the Lord of Agincourt attacked the baggage train to the rear. As the English could afford no more than a token guard, they were quickly overwhelmed and the attackers made off with their plunder, including one of Henry's crowns. This may, in fact, have been a poorly timed flanking attack, based on the French plan to cause disruption to the rear of the English position. As this occurred, the Counts of Marle and Fauquemberghes rallied 600 men-at-arms for a counter attack which ended as disastrously as the others. In response, to the ensuing panic, Henry ordered the killing of the prisoners. The English men-at-arms refused, probably not so much on moral grounds (killing an equal after their surrender was dishonorable) as financial. They stood to lose the ransom from the prisoners. As a result, 200 archers were given the job as they were tough, professional soldiers outside the bounds of chivalry.

There are many possible reasons for this order. It may simply have been revenge for the attack on the baggage train. It has also been suggested that it may have been used as a terror weapon to control the prisoners. As between one and two thousand prisoners were returned to England, those on the field would have greatly outnumbered the archers, at least 10-1 so it may have been an effective, even if brutal method of moving them quickly to the rear and knocking the last bit of fight out of them. More importantly, there were more prisoners than the English, all still in armor on a battlefield littered with weapons. With the third French line threatening to attack, Henry would have been worried about this threat from the rear. How many were killed is unknown but contemporary observers say it was more than were killed in battle. Modern scholars have roundly condemned Henry for this action but it is interesting to note that no observers of the day, even the French, have done so. In fact many argued it was justified and even went so far as to criticize the third French line for acting in a was as to force it. From the viewpoint of a 15th century knight, it was seen as necessary, the French also having done similar previously. The attack never materialized, and the killing of prisoners stopped as the threat evaporated. With the two first lines destroyed and the third slinking away, the battle of Agincourt was won.

[Tab]

Frank S did you know that the French used to cut of the fingers on a bowmans right hand if he was captured, so that he could no longer use a bow. That is were the British two finger gesture comes from as the Bowman used to stick there fingers up at the French so they coulsd see what they where in for and try and encourage them to come and try and get them.

[Sticky Blue]

It was also used after the battles to show that the English Bowmen would be back the next day.
Interesting read to say the least... I wonder if it will be on the Time Commanders series. I do like that series and it would be nice to see if the English bowmen could win the day again

[Frank S.]

Yep, I'd heard of the cutting of fingers by the French. On another note, tough bastards your ancestors were... Agincourt was a spectacular victory.

[Whitey]

Thanks Frank and Harry,
Good peice of history. What happened to men like that?

[Tab]

Frank, Agincourt was almost as good as the battle at Crecy

[Frank S.]

An account of Crecy:

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The Englishmen, who were in three battles lying on the ground to rest them, as soon as they saw the Frenchmen approach, they rose upon their feet fair and easily without any haste and arranged their battles. The first, which was the prince's battle, the archers there stood in manner of a herse and the men of arms in the bottom of the battle. The earl of Northampton and the earl of Arundel with the second battle were on a wing in good order, ready to comfort the prince's battle, if need were.

The lords and knights of France came not to the assembly together in good order, for some came before and some came after in such haste and evil order, that one of them did trouble another. When the French king saw the Englishmen, his blood changed, and [he] said to his marshals: "Make the Genoways go on before and begin the battle in the name of God and Saint Denis." There were of the Genoways crossbows about a fifteen thousand, but they were so weary of going afoot that day a six leagues armed with their crossbows, that they said to their constables: "We be not well ordered to fight this day, for we be not in the case to do any great deed of arms: we have more need of rest." These words came to the earl of Alencon, who said: "A man is well at ease to be charged with such a sort of rascals, to be faint and fail now at most need." Also the same season there fell a great rain and a clipse with a terrible thunder, and before the rain there came flying over both battles a great number of crows for fear of the tempest coming. Then anon the air began to wax clear, and the sun to shine fair and bright, the which was right in the Frenchmen's eyes and on the Englishmen's backs. When the Genoways were assembled together and began to approach, they made a great [shout] and cry to abash the Englishmen, but they stood still and stirred not for all that: then the Genoways again the second time made another leap and a fell cry, and stept forward a little, and the Englishmen removed not one foot: thirdly, again they lept and cried, and went forth till they came within shot; then they shot fiercely with their crossbows. Then the English archers stept forth one pace and let fly their arrows so wholly [together] and so thick, that it seemed snow. When the Genoways felt the arrows piercing through heads arms and breasts, many of them cast down their crossbows and did cut their strings and returned discomfited. When the French king saw them fly away, he said: "Slay these rascals, for they shall let and trouble us without reason." Then ye should have seen the men at arms dash in among them and killed a great number of them: and ever still the Englishmen shot whereas they saw thickest press; the sharp arrows ran into the men of arms and into their horses, an many fell, horse and men, among the Genoways, and when they were down, they could not relieve again, the press was so thick that on overthrew another. And also among the Englishmen there were certain rascals that went afoot with great knives, and they went in among the men of arms, and slew and murdered many as they lay on the ground, both earls, barons, knights, and squires, whereof the king of England was after displeased, for he had rather they had been taken prisoners.

The valiant king of Bohemia called Charles of Luxembourg, son to the noble emperor Henry of Luxembourg, for all that he was nigh blind, when he understood the order of the battle, he said to the about him: "Where is the lord Charles my son?" His men said: "Sir we cannot tell; we think he be fighting." Then he said: "Sirs, ye are my men, my companions and friends in this journey: I require you bring me so far forward, that I may strike one stroke with my sword." They said they would do his commandment, and to the intent that they should not lose him in the press, they tied all their reins of their bridles each to other and set the king before to accomplish his desire, and so they went on their enemies. The lord Charles of Bohemia his son, who wrote himself king of Almaine and bare the arms, he came in good order to the battle; but when he saw that the matter went awry on their party, he departed, I cannot tell you which way. The king his father was so far forward that he strake a stroke with his sword, yea and more than four, and fought valiantly and so did his company; and they adventured themselves so forward, that they were there all slain; and the next day they were found in the place about the king, and all their horses tied each to other. *** [The contingent led by the king's son, the Black Prince, was hard pressed in the fighting.] Then the second battle of the Englishment came to succour the prince's battle, the which was time, for they had as then much ado and they with the prince sent a messenger to the king, who was on a little windmill hill. Then the knight said to the king: "Sir, the earl of Warwick and the earl of Oxford, sir Raynold Cobham and other, such as be about the prince your son, are fiercely fought withal and are sore handled; wherefore they desire you that you and your battle will come and aid them; for if the Frenchmen increase, as they doubt they will, your son and they shall have much ado." Then the king said: "Is my son dead or hurt or on the earth felled?" "No, sir," quoth the knight, "but he is hardly matched; wherefore he hath need of your aid." "Well," said the king, "return to him and to them that sent you hither, and say to them that they send no more to me for any adventure that falleth, as long as my son is alive: and also say to them that they suffer him this day to win his spurs; for if God be pleased, I will this journey be his and the honour thereof, and to them that be about him."

[Tab]

Well done Frank

[chunky from york]

Frank

Can you imagine the present Duke of York ( who voted for him anyway?) clad in an armour astride a cart horse, waving his sword and shouting 'right lads follow me).

Agincourt is also famous for the fact that it was the first time a shoulder fired fire arm was used, if you look at paintings, you will see one in the corner being fired. They were not expected to of any serious use

[Frank S.]

I have trouble enough picturing Chirac as a lieutenant in Algeria.
Wonder if he was in charge of the alligator clips...?

[Tab]

How much was in the charge Frank 12 volts or 240

[Frank S.]

I think 12 volts for batteries or generators, not sure about the amperage.
The batteries could also be used for burning with acid.
The amperage's the key.

[Sisyphus]

Can you imagine the present Duke of York ( who voted for him anyway?) clad in an armour astride a cart horse, waving his sword and shouting 'right lads follow me).

Probably not. But I could imagine him in a Sea King hovering above Ark Royal acting as a decoy for Argie Exocets.

[Frank S.]

Agincourt is also famous for the fact that it was the first time a shoulder fired fire arm was used, if you look at paintings, you will see one in the corner being fired. They were not expected to of any serious use

Man... I'd completely forgotten about that. Thanks for the refresher.
On another note, my jab at Chirac was kind of a cheap shot, he was wounded in combat after all, and was probably not involved in interrogations anyway. But I just don't like the man.

[chunky from york]

Frank


Who does ????????