Northern Ireland

[Maverick]

Do you think that Britain has a 'right' to Northern Ireland? Do you think that the six counties should be returned to Ireland?

I think that its a difficult question to answer. If you look at it from a historical perspective, though, then there is no room for debate. The land belongs to the Irish and was taken by invading English who caused immeasurable amounts of suffering.

However, these days the majority of people there want to be part of Britain. They would rather be ruled by London than Dublin.

I've read a lot of books about British soldiers and of course Ireland is mentioned in it a lot. Whilst I don't agree with bombing the hell out of innocent shoppers, I find myself being more sympathetic to the Irish nationalists.

ie. Getting your door kicked down in the middle of the night by soldiers from another country, be stopped at checkpoints constantly, being locked up without having a trial, people marching by your door singing songs about killing catholics...

This is no excuse to get out the semtex but from a political point of view I can understand why people would want the British to leave their 'fecking' country.

I don't think that Britain has any right to Northern Ireland. The six counties should have been returned at the same time as the rest. You can't draw a line around a part of the country and say that you're keeping that because there's a concentration of protestants there!

If the protestants in NI want to be a part of Britain then they should move to England or Scotland. London has no claim to any part of Ireland and should have no control of any part of it.

And if any more trouble breaks out in NI when we leave, let Dublin handle it. Too many British soldiers have been lost trying to save politicians' face.

[voodoo sprout]

From what little I know of irish history, I agree that the British/English claimed ireland by force and as such had no viable claim. However Northern ireland has been Britain long enoguh to be considered part of the UK just as much as any other country within it. These things generally depend on how much time it takes for a piece of land to become either a country in itself, or part of another (which is of course entirely subjective). Israel is an excellent example, as I think the modern Israel should never have been formed, based as it was on the same principle of time; in this case the Jews claim was thousands of years old and is in my opinion irrelevant. However if you ask me it has now established itself and by virtue of its aproved continuity should be considered a country just as much as those much older than itself. And Northern Ireland is the same; it's been in this situation for long enoguh to be part of Britain, and so it is by rights British.

[Andy O'Pray]

If my memory serves me correctly, the 1928 declaration read along the following lines. That the six Northern counties would be seperate from the Southern counties and that as long as the majority of the population of the North wished to remain British, then British governments would uphold that wish. A declaration which I am sure successive British governments have regretted.

Aye - Andy.

[lodgi]

Of course it should stay bloody British. If the people of NI want to stay British then they should.

If the protestants in NI want to be a part of Britain then they should move to England or Scotland

That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long while. Asking a population of [I don't know how many but probably close to a million] to move to England or Scotland is just daft.

[Andy O'Pray]

The majority of the Protestants living in NI are the offspring of the Scots who moved there many, many moons ago from Scotland.

Aye - andy.

[Rogue Chef]

Ahoy there Maverick!

I've read a lot of books about British soldiers and of course Ireland is mentioned in it a lot. Whilst I don't agree with bombing the hell out of innocent shoppers, I find myself being more sympathetic to the Irish nationalists.

ie. Getting your door kicked down in the middle of the night by soldiers from another country, be stopped at checkpoints constantly, being locked up without having a trial, people marching by your door singing songs about killing catholics...

I suspect that much of your reading was written/published by people with a similar leaning as "An Phoblacht/Republican News".

Try this link for a 'balanced perspective' of what is happening in NI.

http://www.irlnet.com/aprn/index.html

I'm sure it will be right up your alley.

For the record I served in NI for a considerable proportion of my 22 years. I witnessed some vicious sectarianism by both sides, and occasionally the security forces got it wrong.
But the assertion that there was systematic brutalisation of one section of the population (ie Nationalist/Republican/RC) is a wicked myth.

[Budgie]

I remember on one tour talking with an ex B special who asked me as a Brit what was I doing there? I gave him the stock government answer of the day .."I am part of the scheme to try and find the answer to the Irish Question". To which he replied with a smile "If you as the English ever find the answer, We as the Irish will just change the question"

Which sums it up for me. The complexities of Ulster are deep rooted and embedded in over 300 years of troubled history. It is not going to be resolved in one generation or even two.

[rabby]

The majority of the Protestants living in NI are the offspring of the Scots who moved there many, many moons ago from Scotland.

Aye - andy.

Was it not the other way round? i.e. many moons ago nearly the whole Irish population flocked to Scotland and abroad to US of A. They were fleeing the Irish Potato Famine in 1840 something.

[Maverick]

Native Americans and Aborigines cannot even be mentioned alongside the Irish. They were living in some of the most sparsely populated land in the world whilst millions of others were dying of overcrowding and famine in other countries. People had no choice but to move their.

The reason I sympathise with the nationalist view point is because all the trouble that was caused in Ireland is due to the English. There is a song which I heard before;

'And you dare to call me a terrorist
while you look down your gun
when I think of all the deeds that you have done
you have plundered many nations
divided many lands
you have terrorised their people
you ruled with an iron hand
and you brought this rein of terror to my land'

Whether or not the Irish were united under a government, they were a 'people'. The whole of Ireland belonged to them.

Lets say that the Germans invaded Britain during the first world war. And lets say that London became pro-German and Germans started to poplulate that area. Years later when the Germans pulled out they decided that because that area had so many pro-German people that they were keeping it.

How would you feel as a young English man living there when these Germans started giving you a hard time walking down the street? Or when your door was kicked down in the middle of the night when there was no weapons in your home? Or when 16 young men were killed for protesting and no charges were ever brought?

Saying you'd be mightily pissed off would be an understatement. You want them out.

This is obviously an incredibly simplistic viewpoint of the Irish situation, but it allows you to see things from other peoples points of view.

[Contractor]

This is obviously an incredibly simplistic viewpoint of the Irish situation

This is the most sensible thing you have said Maverick.

Did you take the trouble to read Rogue Chef's post prior to adding your last?

[Maverick]

I read everyones posts.

I am a great believer in stepping into other peoples shoes and seeing things from their perspectives. Its something that everyone should and really helps you appreciate other peoples standpoints.

Whilst I believe that if I were a young irish catholic man in NI during the troubles I would be doing everying that young nationalists were doing, I reaslise that many of the heavy handed tactics of the army were necessary and could often be excused by the pressure they were under ie. having bricks thrown at you every day and your mates blown up.

Just ask yourself honestly if you were living in the falls road as a young catholic during the troubles would you not be doing pretty much what they were, and believe what they believed?

I think you would. JMHO

[Contractor]

You would have been more than welcome to step into my size 10 boots for the 4 years out of 22 years service that I spent in the Province, they would have shown you some 'interesting' things

Please don't assume what I would think. Looking back I think as a young Catholic I would be extremely grateful to the British Army for standing in the way of the bricks, spit, paint, varnish et al that was being aimed at me by my Protestant neighbor across the street.

Books are one thing Maverick, being there is another.

[Josh]

Jesus Christ! If it's not someone trying to get the Falklands back, its someone trying to give Northern Ireland back!

[Andy O'Pray]

Rabby,

In answer to your question. The Scots were a Celtic people living in what is now known as Ireland. They moved over to the West of Scotland pre Roman times and intermingled with the Picts and Celts living in Scotland.

When the English moved into Ireland many hundreds of years ago, many Scots living in Western Scotland moved over to Ireland, mainly to farm. The potatoe famine was in more recent history when the starving Irish landed on the West Coast of Scotland looking for work, they were referred to as the Donnegal's. Some did sail to the USA and Australia, but many stayed.

A note Maverick. The reason that British troops initially moved into Northern Ireland was to protect the Roman Catholic population from the Protestant population. It was during this time, while under the protection of the troops, that the IRA started to arm themselves in a serious way. At that time the Catholics welcomed British troops as their protectors.

Aye - Andy.