Its a relatively well publicised fact (Uk press) that some USAF fighter pilots are given speed to help them concentrate during the long hours flying. Apparently thats what contributed to them firing on a group of Canadians, killing 2 or 3 of them in the recent past... Cant remember if it was Afghanistan where that happened, but Im sure someone will have more facts on this than me...
Jules
Share This Page:
Blue on Blue
-
voodoo sprout
- Member
- Posts: 1224
- Joined: Sun 01 Dec, 2002 5:13 pm
- Location: London, UK
- Contact:
Using drugs o stay awake is quite common in the military (US at least), even infantry are given "go" and "stop" pills to keep them alert for long periods, and to send them whizzing into he land of nod respectively. And if I wanted air support, I'd rather have an alert pilot but whos judgement may be clouded, than a pilot who dozes off and wakes up only to find himself flying straight and level into a mountain 
.
.-
Andy O'Pray
- Member
- Posts: 3189
- Joined: Thu 06 Dec, 2001 12:00 am
- Location: www
I have followed the hearing into friendly fire incident in Afghanistan quite closely and have been left with the impression that the two American pilots, albeit not blameless, were hung out to dry, especially by their own CO.
During the FF incident 4 Canadians were killed and 8 injured. I was involved in setting up the Fire Control Centre (FCC) system in 45 commando group, a system that we borrowed from the Americans during the Vietnam war. For the less knowledgeable, the FCC controls all fire from artillery, mortars, etc, plus aircraft, be they fixed wing or choppers. I will not get into all of the details. The main FCC in this incident was in the AWAC.
The Canadians had informed the authorities of their live firing exercise. One of the operators in the AWAC stated that he had not been told of the exercise. The pilots, of course denied any knowledge of the exercise, so somewhere along the chain the information disappeared.
Yes the pilots were on pep pills. The pilots were supposed to be on duty for 12 hours, in this case they had been on duty for 20 hours. The CO stated that his pilots had not read the latest orders. I was under the impression that pilots were briefed prior to taking off. The CO also stated that he would not have taken the action that his pilots did, nice guy.
Somewhere somebody within the system screwed up and in my opinion it was not entirely the pilots fault.
Aye - Andy.
During the FF incident 4 Canadians were killed and 8 injured. I was involved in setting up the Fire Control Centre (FCC) system in 45 commando group, a system that we borrowed from the Americans during the Vietnam war. For the less knowledgeable, the FCC controls all fire from artillery, mortars, etc, plus aircraft, be they fixed wing or choppers. I will not get into all of the details. The main FCC in this incident was in the AWAC.
The Canadians had informed the authorities of their live firing exercise. One of the operators in the AWAC stated that he had not been told of the exercise. The pilots, of course denied any knowledge of the exercise, so somewhere along the chain the information disappeared.
Yes the pilots were on pep pills. The pilots were supposed to be on duty for 12 hours, in this case they had been on duty for 20 hours. The CO stated that his pilots had not read the latest orders. I was under the impression that pilots were briefed prior to taking off. The CO also stated that he would not have taken the action that his pilots did, nice guy.
Somewhere somebody within the system screwed up and in my opinion it was not entirely the pilots fault.
Aye - Andy.
Our American cousins get a lot of stick about blue-on-blues. But they happen. Agreed we should do whatever we can to minimize the possibility - but they will happen.
I'm sure Parry can recall taking off from the Ark Royal in his swordfish to attack the Bismarck which had given the Rodney and George the slip. As they swooped in and released their torpedoes the signal telling them HMS Sheffield was shadowing the Bismark lay in the "in-tray" on Ark Royal. Some torpedoes struck home. (On the Sheffield, that is) Luckily, they'd been fitted with new detonators - which failed to work!?!?!?!?!????????????
Change torpedoes to old style detonators, take off again, and the rest is history.
Oh, well, except for the final moments of the Bismark when the Ark Royal's swordfish moved in for the kill. They were fired on by HMS Dorsetshire - deliberately!!!! After all, Ark Royal was from the Mediterranean fleet. Naturally, the North Atlantic fleet had to sink her. So what if a few swordfish pilot might have to pay with their lives to maintain the honour of the Fleet.
(Never mind she would have escaped if the swordfish hadn't wrecked her rudder, sending her round in circles)
I'm sure Parry can recall taking off from the Ark Royal in his swordfish to attack the Bismarck which had given the Rodney and George the slip. As they swooped in and released their torpedoes the signal telling them HMS Sheffield was shadowing the Bismark lay in the "in-tray" on Ark Royal. Some torpedoes struck home. (On the Sheffield, that is) Luckily, they'd been fitted with new detonators - which failed to work!?!?!?!?!????????????
Change torpedoes to old style detonators, take off again, and the rest is history.
Oh, well, except for the final moments of the Bismark when the Ark Royal's swordfish moved in for the kill. They were fired on by HMS Dorsetshire - deliberately!!!! After all, Ark Royal was from the Mediterranean fleet. Naturally, the North Atlantic fleet had to sink her. So what if a few swordfish pilot might have to pay with their lives to maintain the honour of the Fleet.
(Never mind she would have escaped if the swordfish hadn't wrecked her rudder, sending her round in circles)
In case you hav'nt noticed it is now the 21st century
The attacks you are referring to occurred over 60 years ago, surely in this day and age it should be practically impossible to attack friendly forces.
If your sword is too short step forward it will be long enough
The attacks you are referring to occurred over 60 years ago, surely in this day and age it should be practically impossible to attack friendly forces.
This I do not believe! I would admit to warning shots being fired but deliberately endangering the planes. Bunkum!Oh, well, except for the final moments of the Bismark when the Ark Royal's swordfish moved in for the kill. They were fired on by HMS Dorsetshire - deliberately!!!!
If your sword is too short step forward it will be long enough
-
Rogue Chef
- Guest
Ahoy there!
May 1982, B Coy position overlooking San Carlos. Air red! 2 x fighter aircraft swooped to wards our positions and were engaged by small arms fire by the troops before disappearing over the hillside....................
A L/Cpl gun group commander (who went on to have a distinguished career at 22) having ordered his GPMG gunner to cease fire shouted to CSM Les Gordon "That's a hit Sgt Major, I'm claiming that one for 4Tp".
"I hope not, the second plane was a Harrier!" came the reply.
PS - SLRs and GPMGs weren't fitted with IFF.
May 1982, B Coy position overlooking San Carlos. Air red! 2 x fighter aircraft swooped to wards our positions and were engaged by small arms fire by the troops before disappearing over the hillside....................
A L/Cpl gun group commander (who went on to have a distinguished career at 22) having ordered his GPMG gunner to cease fire shouted to CSM Les Gordon "That's a hit Sgt Major, I'm claiming that one for 4Tp".
"I hope not, the second plane was a Harrier!" came the reply.
PS - SLRs and GPMGs weren't fitted with IFF.
Anodrog
You may be right. It could be bunkum. But you'd have to take that up with the swordfish pilot who related the story ("The Hood and the Bismark" C4 a couple of weeks ago). By the way, it might have been the Devonshire, not the Dorsetshire. Warning shot? Sure. But you've got more faith in gunners missing their targets than I have - even if they mean to. Apparently we fired 1000's of shells at the Bismark and recorded 200 hits. If we can't hit what we're firing at, how sure are we we'll miss what we're not firing at?
Yes, it happened 60yrs ago. But the reality is blue-on-blues still occur. Remember Vietnam, the Falklands, the Gulf, Afghanistan? Common denominator: men at war make mistakes.
I fully agree, you'd think by now we'd have some (near) foolproof method: the truth is we don't.
You may be right. It could be bunkum. But you'd have to take that up with the swordfish pilot who related the story ("The Hood and the Bismark" C4 a couple of weeks ago). By the way, it might have been the Devonshire, not the Dorsetshire. Warning shot? Sure. But you've got more faith in gunners missing their targets than I have - even if they mean to. Apparently we fired 1000's of shells at the Bismark and recorded 200 hits. If we can't hit what we're firing at, how sure are we we'll miss what we're not firing at?
Yes, it happened 60yrs ago. But the reality is blue-on-blues still occur. Remember Vietnam, the Falklands, the Gulf, Afghanistan? Common denominator: men at war make mistakes.
I fully agree, you'd think by now we'd have some (near) foolproof method: the truth is we don't.
-
Andy O'Pray
- Member
- Posts: 3189
- Joined: Thu 06 Dec, 2001 12:00 am
- Location: www
AMEN ANDY O'PRAY
The average age of our troops is 19 to 21 years old and in a fire fight or when things get "sticky" our friend confusion sets in and fear. I feel these younger men are not quite as mentally capable of handling the stress of combat.
One case that happened in the Gulf. we were setting into a defensive position after a day filled with a couple of firefights with the republican guard. I sent 2 machine gunners forward of our position to set out range stakes on their way back to our position one of our younger troops caught their movement out of the corner of his eye and without question opened fire on our 2 machine gunners. luckily he was spazed out and missed with a whole clip of ammo! before I could get to him to stop his inadvertant fire.
This also happened to be the darkest night I can ever remember all that oil smoke in the air our N.V. gear would not work in the starlight mode and only a fool would use infrared on a battlefield!! As a sniper I showed our troops exactly what I was talking about. infrared is a snipers best friend at night!!
The average age of our troops is 19 to 21 years old and in a fire fight or when things get "sticky" our friend confusion sets in and fear. I feel these younger men are not quite as mentally capable of handling the stress of combat.
One case that happened in the Gulf. we were setting into a defensive position after a day filled with a couple of firefights with the republican guard. I sent 2 machine gunners forward of our position to set out range stakes on their way back to our position one of our younger troops caught their movement out of the corner of his eye and without question opened fire on our 2 machine gunners. luckily he was spazed out and missed with a whole clip of ammo! before I could get to him to stop his inadvertant fire.
This also happened to be the darkest night I can ever remember all that oil smoke in the air our N.V. gear would not work in the starlight mode and only a fool would use infrared on a battlefield!! As a sniper I showed our troops exactly what I was talking about. infrared is a snipers best friend at night!!
better to burn out, than fade away
Re: Blue on Blue
rabby wrote:Read in the paper today about the on-going situation with so-called "friendly" fire, most notably from the Yanks, after they bombed a British APC in the last Gulf War. If we are going to battle Saddam, shouldn't protect ourselves from the Amercicans first?
you're right.....and A10 bombed a 2 tanks....killing 4-5 scottish soldiers...even though the tank had great big union jacks on the tops of them
-
Rogue Chef
- Guest
