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28,000 die from guns? We have 250 plus million people in the US, hey drop in the bucket if you even look at it in the worst way. Survival of the fittest, if you are an idiot with a gun, then you won't be for long, if you are a murderer, then push the death penelty, 2 for 1 deal more food for me.
Most of the gun crime in the US is spooks in gangs knocking off other spooks. Drugs and gun accidents, crime ect... are close related. I could careless if drug dealers kill eachother. The people that get shot accidentally, hey I'm sorry you were dumb enough to leave it laying around or cleaning it loaded. The reality is, most people don't know anyone who got killed by a gun who didn't deserve it here. My moms cousin shot her husband because he was drunk and coming home kicking the door or something, she thought he was a robber and shot him. Yeah it sucked, but hey she is an idiot, and he paid for marrying her. Drunk, idiot woman + gun= accident. As bad as it was, I don't say we should change a thing. I keep my stuff locked up, I don't flash it around like a spook, I obey the law, don't use drugs, and I am smart enough not to touch a weapon drunk. I will say that I like having them for home protection if nothing else. It takes the police 30 minutes minimum to get here, and we've had some break-ins where the criminals held kids at home at gun point while they stole. Won't happen here though. We live an a rough society here, is it guns? No I think there is some truth to Franks relation of weather and violence, but our culture is just a violent one. Can we change it? We could try and have, we fail. So you just protect your family and self.
BTW the Cold war is over with a new one on the horizon.
Cars kill more people than guns, homosexual lifestyles claim more lives, and blacks make up the majority of the violent gun crime. If we really wanted to end a big amount of gun deaths, we wouldn't sell guns to blacks, if we wanted to stop terror, we'd ban arabs from air travel. If we wanted to stop the spread of disease, we'd seal the southern border. If we wanted quality politicians we'd make reading, writing, and a general knowledge of geography a requirement before allowing idiots to vote. But we'd never do things that made logical sense, we have to do what feels good.
Guns save alot of lives as well, and it is the only leverage we have that keeps those who'd use the Constitution for shit paper from acting on their urge.
Okay Humanist's rip me apart so you can feel better.

This is not based on any solid research on my part by any means, just an opinion:
I really still don't fully subscribe to the existence of a culture of violence here in the States. We are basically a country of immigrants, still. The main change ocurred I think in the early '60s with immigration quotas favoring third world nations at the expense of developped countries (i.e. European).
European immigrants who came here not knowing the language either learned it or made certain their children (2nd generation) not only learned it, but fully integrated by performing in school and then pursuing better employment opportunities than their parents.
The same could be said for much of the Asian immigrants, but in both cases, there are exceptions.
Interestingly there are North-South divisions in immigrant populations as well. Here in California's melting pot (or boiler room experiment), the Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians could be said to be preyed upon by the Chinese criminal element, and by extension, the business community.
I work in a very diverse environment where there are many Chinese, but virtually zero other Asian nationality.
(I'm not typing this from work, obviously )
So basically diverse means women, Chinese, blacks and a smattering of fudge-packers from various denominations. Not so diverse, really.
In any case, the Chinese mafia (Triads? no such thing ) uses Vietnamese and a few others for muscle.
The nature of the American economy having changed, so did the nature of workers and work conditions.
First, it was all about hard work, then it was working smart. Now it's working very hard and very smart.

Don't worry, I'll tie this up to violence shortly.

Anyway, as I was saying, we have a huge influx of immigrants who lack a basic education on which to build, and add skills in demand.
At this point, it's basically useless to pursue a degree in computer engineering unless you plan to go into computer sales: that field is clogged.
So if Pedro or Huang or Nguyen 'get off the boat' with pictures of prosperity in their head, it may quickly change to the 'Scarface' scenario.
They end up in the cheap areas of town, or ghetto if the town's big enough, among other immigrants who speak different languages.
Here, the lowly city jobs like meter-maids, security jobs and janitors are monopolized by Filipinos and South-Americans.
Above that it's blacks.
When you cram people in a small depressed area, where they don't share a language, the common language they'll use is violence and the commodities are drugs and guns.
A sizeable portion are on welfare and exchange government food stamps for cash or drugs. In my city the Vietnamese Mammas are the main such street bankers and the money collected floats upwards to the Chinese bosses.
When I was at the muffler shop there to get exhaust work done, the shop owner told me they took cash, credit cards or food stamps. He was half-joking.
As an aside, 9 years ago in a town 65 miles South of here, a domestic terrorism suspect was arrested in a car he had purchased with food stamps.
A secondary economy I'd mentioned in the past.

Back to work: America's like an engine. An engine which produces a lot of exhaust and consumes a lot of gas.
Do you know what the third leading cause of death in the US is? Doctors.
And no I don't think they're entirely to blame. But the fact is, immigrants constitute a huge part of the fuel consumed by the US, and they saturate the healthcare system's emergency rooms.
Communications problems complicated by patients ignorant of their medical history (allergies, etc.) results in wrong prescriptions and deaths.
The healthcare system has many serious problems but it is an ever growing field.
There are fewer mobile working parts in the engine and more fuel's being fed into it.

Cars kill more people than guns, homosexual lifestyles claim more lives, and blacks make up the majority of the violent gun crime. If we really wanted to end a big amount of gun deaths, we wouldn't sell guns to blacks, if we wanted to stop terror, we'd ban arabs from air travel. If we wanted to stop the spread of disease, we'd seal the southern border.

You are joking right? I mean when you say this is logical.

Survival of the fittest, if you are an idiot with a gun, then you won't be for long, if you are a murderer, then push the death penelty, 2 for 1 deal more food for me.

Again, you don't seriously believe this? I agree if your dumb enough to be putting to your head as a joke or cleaning it loaded you kind of deserve it, but what about the dumb drunk who just walked into a shop a bought a gun kept it under his pillow only for his young daughter to find it? Does she deserve it? I don't mind people owning guns, my problem comes when irresponsible people own guns. The fact is it shouldn't be a right to bare arms just like it shouldn't be a right to own a car no matter what. If you can't use it responsibly then you shouldn't use it at all. In the US it's pretty easy compared to many other developed nations to get guns and even easier to get ammunition, and thats all you really need, anyone whose ever seen a cartridge knows how easy it is to set it off. Maybe if the US had proven itself able to have this freedom then it would be ok but it hasn't and gun laws should be tightened. I'm sure, Whitey, you wouldn't mind doing a test when you by a gun to see if you can safely handle it and show your liscence when buying ammunition.

Frank S. wrote:BTW, Sisyphus, for which year did you extract the figure of 11.000?

Frank

I think it's for 2001. Got it from 'Bowling for Columbine'. Not sure how Columbine and other incidents involving schools or disgruntled employees killing their colleagues fits in with whitey's 'survival of the fittest' theory.

28,000 a drop in the ocean? Like Stalin said: 'One death is a tragedy, one million (or 28,000) is a statistic.'

Maybe, but not if you or one of your kids is one of the 28,000.

Frank S. wrote: We are basically a country of immigrants, still. European immigrants who came here not knowing the language either learned it or made certain their children (2nd generation) not only learned it, but fully integrated by performing in school and then pursuing better employment opportunities than their parents.

Frank

Reading a book about the 'Great Hunger' and the Irish exodus to the U.S.: Initially, for jobs and accommodation it was 'Irish need not apply'. they got a reputation as thieves and vagabonds - inevitable if you couldn't work and were starving. It wasn't until the 3rd generation that the Irish Americans began to make themselves 'felt'. They certainly seem to be doing OK now in U.S. society. [Kennedy, Clinton etc....]. Maybe some of these 'late-coming' nationalities can achieve the same?

I have an Aunt who lives in Oregon and my cousins live in Santa Barbara. We visited a few years back. What a fantastic time we had. The Grand Canyon was gob-smacking. Vegas was 'interesting' - but I'd only visit once. The Yanks were brilliant. My grandmother also lived there [now deceased]. She was on oxygen for emphysema. The cost was horrendous. My abiding impression was that it was a great country with loads of really nice people - it was somewhere great to visit, but no way would I want to live there. Especially, if I was unemployed, sick or poor.

No I wouldn't mind taking a test, blacks in America hate books, reading and test's, it's like cryptonite to them as said by one of their own. Yeah I've said that for a long time too. The fact is the brothers do contribute to in dividens to gun violence in this country, you only see the white guys mostly in the media though, the government was so disappointed the DC sniper was 2 blacks and not an ex-military white man. The average age of death among blacks in the US is someplace around 45. They tell you in college it is because of guns and drugs and their violent culture mixed together.

I said for years to not let Arabs fly, or make a seperate airline for them to prevent terror on the airlines.

The guys daughter you mentioned in the senario, does she deserve to get shot because her dad is an idiot? Deserve has nothing to do with it.
I was at a friends house a few months ago, he had a pistol (Spook gun imho, white men carry rifles) and he had it under his pillow like you mentioned, and flashed it around like an idiot. This bothered me and I told him so. I made fun of his choice in Wigger weapons, and the next day dropped off a trigger lock to him to put on the gun as a saftey precaution. A week later he lost the key, and now the gun can never be fired. He took it to a locksmith and the guy couldn't get the lock off. So yeah I figured him being an idiot worked out in this case. Guns are no big deal if you keep them safely stored. BTW the guy was from California. You keep your guns unloaded and locked up with a trigger lock on each one with ammo stored and locked seperately. You don't flash your stuff around like some Hollywood movie star.
The 28,000 people mentioned who die a year, sorry, but it ain't my problem. I'm responsible, and yes more people die on the road than get shot. I don't believe in gun bans, but I think pistols should require a more stringent process to obtain. Rifles/long weapons account for very little deaths in contrast, mostly hunting accidents. Pistols need a level head with a decent IQ. But the gun control issue is deeper than the government being concearned for citizen safety. They put bans on the safest weapons while allowing the most dangerous ones to be purchased. The result is gun deaths don't go down like they want, so they ban the other stuff as well.
As long as I obey the law, I don't see why I should be disarmed. It may sound bad, but really the only gun deaths or acciednts I personnally know of involved alcohol, drugs and an idiot of some sort. The rest of the junk you see on TV. I will say though, if we upped the standards for pistol purchases we'd see some crime drop. Then you got the stolen weapons on the street that is a whole other story.

Whitey wrote:The 28,000 people mentioned who die a year, sorry, but it ain't my problem

C'mon whitey,

Get real for heaven's sake. You've got children, yes?

So when some pimply youth, p***d off with his bad grades takes a gun to school and wastes your children and a few more besides, you don't think that's your problem?

OK it ain't happened yet. But the likelihood of it happening in your child's school is far higher than it is in my grandkids' school.

About Colunmbine and work violence. To be honest, we have a problem in America with treating people as human beings. Those kids were picked on harshly for years, and they snapped. Had they not had guns they'd thought of something else. The work place is no different, people pick on and harrasss a certian individual to the point they create their very own personal monster. I've seen this happen. In high school we had a kid who the "In Crowd" picked on religiously and even violently. They took every opprotunity to pick on this kid, even the teachers made fun of this guy. They pushed his head through a window glass, and for no reason other than he was a nerd. Over the next summer old boy shot himself. Sad, when we were the ones who probably deserved it. I saw him getting picked on and only once stopped it. America has a serious character problem as far as treating people decent. When I was in the service, sure we messed with each other, but everyone picked on each other like a family. In the civilian world, these people are ruthless. They alienate these people, make them feel worse than dirt and either the people they make crazy hurt themselves or those who picked on them.
Parents here fail to teach their children respect for the sanctity of human life.

Whitey wrote:Had they not had guns they'd thought of something else.

whitey

We've got a problem in schools with bullying, too - Kid's sometimes committing suicide as a result. My guess is that if guns were readily available, there'd be a few 'Columbines' in the UK, too. I can't think of anything quite as effective as a gun for killing as many people as possible in as short a time as possible.

We did have a similar event at Dunblane in Scotland but it was a nutter Scout Master who murdered the kids, not another pupil.

The homosexuals in Columnbine made target selections based in reality of those who had really harrassed them. My son will be raised to respect human beings, to treat those weaker as a person and not a punching bag. My dad caught me picking on a kid when I was in 5th grade, not only did he whoop my ass, but he made me appologize right there to that kid infront of my audience, then on the way home lectured me into feeling as low as I'd made that boy feel. Unfortunately most parents think this stuff is funny here as long as their kid isn't being picked on.

My son won't go to a public school either, most likely a Catholic private school. Public schools are full of trash. Have been since the civil rights movement. The brothers at my high school beat on people for being white and before this gun craze we had stabbins at school, quiet a few. The monkeys at the other high school stabbed the principal. Our people here just have hostile attitudes and they like to hurt eachother. But banning guns won't solve a character flaw. They'll just find another way to exact violence. We need to teach respect for life again, but how can we when we drop MOAB's on residential areas?

Whitey, I agree outright bans have to be put in place but a more stringent testing to get the guns and fedral law to keep them locked up would reduce the ability to manifest the violence, it's hard to go on a killing spree with a knife. illegal guns could then be tackled more easily (if one is found not locked up then it's taken away). As for bullying, in school there was one kid who got picked on in the first few years of school and one day snapped violently but all that happened was I got kicked in the nuts as I was walking passed, I wasn't doing anything to him he just snapped, now that hurt alot but I would rather get a swift kick in nut sack than get a bullet in my head. That lad now is one of my best mates because he learned to give as good as he gets, if he had access to a gun he could have killed himself or me or anyone else and not only there lifes would be over but everyone elses.

No I wouldn't mind taking a test, blacks in America hate books, reading and test's, it's like cryptonite to them as said by one of their own. Yeah I've said that for a long time too.

Now assuming thats true then wouldn't a test be good? forceing those who would kill with there guns to have pictures of themselves for a license and complete a written and practical exam.

I said for years to not let Arabs fly, or make a seperate airline for them to prevent terror on the airlines.

Come on Whitey you must see the impractibilities of this. The logic is totaly flawd. Like you said cars kill more people but does that mean that if most hit and run accidents are done by white people all white people must not be allowed to drive?

As long as I obey the law, I don't see why I should be disarmed

I don't either but better laws should be put into place to protect the public.

Whitey wrote:The monkeys at the other high school stabbed the principal.

The US and the UK speak the same language but we can 'mess up' sometimes.

Fanny in the US is just a term for backside. In the UK it's a bit more crude. It's the part of the female anatomy men are most interested in.

In the UK, 'monkey' is a racist term for blacks. What does it mean in the US?

I use Monkey or Chimp all the time for idiot... it is a southern thang I think.
Other favourite insults include... well I'd better stop before I start or I'll have to request I'm banned.

harry,

I think Sticky's gunning for my place in the Diplomatic Corps!

He's such a smoothy, he'll probably get it!

Yeah I was inferring idiot, but we call them monkeys here too, but we and they don't see it as so offensive as ni double ger, we call them lots of stuff and they call us stuff too. They get all bent on the negro word, anything else is like a grain of salt. They call us honkeys, MFer's, white devils, crackers, ghost faces ect...
We stay away from them and they stay away from us for the most part. I'll associate with the ones who act like human beings, but I stear clear of the ones who emulate rap stars in videos. And they stay clear of people like me. Theys afraids of the whites mans way down souths.
No really, we are so different culturally here, and we weren't always that we just got nothing in common. There are exceptions on both sides though.
We have the Cornelius's (Blacks who identify with white culture) and we have Wiggers(Whites who want to be black, but end up punching bags on MLK day by their idols). I've spent years trying to understand them, why they get themselves into trouble so much, in the Army I'd try to talk those black soldiers into making something of themselves, or out of doing something they were going to do to get into trouble, but it was as if they were magnatized to trouble, I finally figured out, the only people who can can through to them is their own people. This is a strange country.