terrorist attacks in london

[Bliartheliar]

Obviously we have been a target for many years. The bombings during the 90s were meant to instigate the US and Brits into attacking Afghanistan, so that Msulims would come to the conclusion that Islam is under attack from the 'crusaders', motivating them to go out an hit back. 9/11 meant that we had no choice but to bomb Afghanistan, which resulting in limited outrage amongst Muslims. However the mass majority of Muslims opposed OBL (and still do) and agreed that the bombing of Afghanistan was justified. It was only OBLs close followers and several indiviuals and minor groups around the world who were prepared to launch attacks.

But then we invaded Iraq - an illegal war that had little support in the Western world and caused mass outrage amongst Muslims. The war has not been justified because of the lack of WMDs etc. The war and subsequent occupation has caused mass outrage amongst Muslims and has instigated many of them (but still a minority) to take up the extremist agenda.

What I am syaing is that pre-9/11 we were not a target. Post 9/11 we were a possible target for a few. Post Iraq, it was inevitable that we would get hit. the cahnces are that these terrorists were British born and bred - al Qaeda is not a group. It is a brand name for a movement, a tactic.

A couple of years ago these people may not have even held extremist views. But images of Iraqi civilians getting killed and extremist teachings have instigated them to go out and kill.

Ovcourse, there is no jsutification for terrorism. They need to be hunted down one by one (something that our security forces have done successfully over the last 4 years I have to say).

There aims are not to invade the West, but to limit Western influence in the Muslims world so that the Muslim community can grow stroing again. To them, the US and its allies are the main obstacles to this. To the average Muslim who holds extremists views, they are crusaders.

No one can deny that the war in Iraq has fueled Islamic Extremism. It is something that we will have to live with for the rest of our lives, and for generations to come. We cant give into them. But our policies must change.

They are 'fghting' for short term strategic political goals. This is not a clash of civilisations between Muslims and non-Muslims. They probably want us to withdraw troops from Iraqm thus wedging a gap between us and America. Thats not going to happen. This is a war. What happned in London is simply retaliation for Iraq.

As a sub point, id like to add that International Islamic Extremism and Palestinian Terrorism are two distinct 'groups'. OBL, who is now merely a figurehead, may use Israel to heat up tensions among the Arab world, but he is not fighitng for the Palestinians. Infact, Hamas Hizbollah and the PLO have accused OBL of trying to hijack there aims and have basically told him to f@#k off.

[Spooky]

the fundamental aim of most fundamentalists is to essentially convert the entire world to islam.

remember, anyone whos not a muslim is an infidel to them.

that alone makes us a target.

[markthestab]

"There aims are not to invade the West, but to limit Western influence in the Muslims world so that the Muslim community can grow stroing again. To them, the US and its allies are the main obstacles to this. To the average Muslim who holds extremists views, they are crusaders."

no the strand of extremism that osama and cronies follow is one that beleives in restoring the islamic empire of the dark ages to its spanish and north african borders, i can point you in the way of several free to download documentaries on the subject

views like yours, along the lines of "why did this happen it must be because we are in iraq" will be seen by osama as a sign of weakness and give him encouragement, ITS NOT OUR FAULT, its the sickos that detonated the bombs

and you posted this on a previous post;

"In a strange way the Iraq war has made me more determined to join up - I was against the war in the first place and the thought that id be at the mercy of Bush and Bliar is a frightening prospect. However the profesionalism and courage that the soldiers of the Marines, RAF, Navy and Army have shown has made me want that life even more. Even my mum has had a change of heart - she was aginst me joining up a few years back when all the trouble first kicked off, but now she has accepted that it is a good career path although she is still a bit worried. "

now your resolve has been weakened, youve gone from being against the war, to not being against it , to being against it again after a terrorist attack

not having a dig mate honestly, but resolve and determination to carry on as we have been doing is needed, not giving into fear and self doubt

you do that and youve let the terrorist beat you, and iraq needs to be fixed, if we pull out a lot more people will die than if we stay, the nutters are alienating themselves more everytime they blow up a street full of their fellow muslims, the only thing stopping iraq being a victory for the iraqis and us and the U.S is if public oppinion in britian and america forces polititions to pull out before the jobs done

[Bliartheliar]

Im not saying that we should withdraw our forces from Iraq. What I am saying is that in the future the US needs to withdraw its comabt forces from countires such as Saudi Arabia and evetually Iraq when they can take over security operations themselves.

I get my information from books written by experts on the matter. I dont listen to the rhetoirc that is thrown my way every time I turn on the tele thats all. You have to look at this from the Muslimns point of view. When they see Western troops walking the streets of Iraq because of a war that was completely unfounded and unneccessary they are going to be pissed off, and a minority decide to hit back. These are the extremists. they need to be defeated. But in the long run we need to work with the moderates and resotre normallity in Iraq and the Arab world.

You need to look at this from both sides. the majority of Muslims oppose American involvement in the middle East. It is inevitable that extremism grow from this.

I never said that I supported them. Im just being realistic. Talk about good vs evil will get you nowhere. Especially when the other side believe they are the good ones.

The war in Iraq had nothing to do with Islmaic Extremism, except in the eyes of the extremists themselves.

It is possible to condem these people and want to understand the motives behind them at the same time. Im not trying to excuse them by trying to explain thier reasons, but they do have reasons. These people dont read the koran then decide to go out and kill. They are not religiously motivated but politically. Its far more complicated than that. And when the US and UK bombs a country for no reason we have to expect trouble.

Only a fool would believe that after inavding Iraq we would not get attacked in return. We have paid the price.

[Bliartheliar]

I never have said that I supported the war in Iraq.

[markthestab]

i can also provide you with titles to read on the subject as well, if you dont like documentaries made by pbs frontline one of bush's harshest critics, i can read too, i dont watch television at all, i dont even own a t.v set to see rhetoric

" never have said that I supported the war in Iraq" , you never said it in those exact words but you did say it

"I was against the war in the first place" followed by "however"in the next sentance certainly suggest a change of heart

c'mon mate dont go comical ali on me

[Bliartheliar]

I was against the war and always have been (from a political perspective). However I admired the military success and the work that the Brits have done. That does not mean I supported the war. Anyway we are fighting a new enemy there now - Islamic extremists. Only a minority are actually Iraqis pissed off with the occupation and they are the ones attacking mililtary targets. It is the foreigners who flock to Iraq to kill US troops and anyone supporting them. Thats proably why the US hasnt een attacked these past 4 years - it is much easier and cheaper for these people to go to Iraq and kill US soldiers rather than fly half way round the world and risking getting past homeland security. Plus Islamic Militants are now focusing on America's allies trying the break up the coaltion.

The Madrid bombings were carried out days before the elections. The attacks helped push the government out of office although the majority of the Spanish people were against the war in Iraq from the start. Its different here. The majority of poeple still support Tony Blair and the UK is America's number one ally, so it should be. However these attacks took place aftre the election so they are not trying to create public resentment here in my opinion.

In Iraq the main player is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. It is known that he has contacts in Europe. To be successful he has to prevent peace from being restored in Iraq. This is possible only with EU and UN support. I reckon he has ordered his associates to attack London in order to send a message to Parisians and Berliners not to support any involvement in Iraq whatsoever. The eyes have been on London and the UK over the past week - Live8, the Olympics, G8. What Zarqawi is saying to them is 'if you give the US help, this is what will happen to you.'

Ovcourse we need to be successful in Iraq. We arent going to pull troops out until stability. We need the EU and UN. We cant let terrorists influence our policies. However, we do need to change our global policies for the sake of ordinary people. Even Bush is aware of this - he wants to open up new oil reserves in Alaska and the US so that dependancy on middle Eastern oil is reduced. After peace is restored in Iraq there will be little need for forces in Iraq and Saudi Arabia, except on a limited scale. America's presence in the region must then be limited to sea-borne forces, not operating on Arab soil but ready to react to any situation.

[Spooky]

al zaqaui or whatever is name is is a nobody.

in iraq the remains of saddams secret police - who hardly any of were detained following the war are pulling the strings along with the fadayeen saddam, who again, hardly any of were captured/killed.

aZ is just the idiot taking all the glory.

[Bliartheliar]

The Baathists are providing the safe houses. al Zawqawi is providing the bombers. Most of the Feyadeen were killed during the war. Many of Saddams police are now in charge of the new police. The US needs some of the baathists to help run the country. Most of the terrorists if not all are foreigners. al Zawqawi is trying to make himself the pre-eminent extremist.

[Spooky]

um.. no... they melted away.

most of saddams police probably are running the police.

but im talking about the secret police. different bunch altogether.

[Sarastro]

No offence to all of the above, but the lot of you know bugger all about who is running what in Iraq / / Afghanistan / Al Qaeda or wherever. Even our intelligence and security services, with the vast amounts of information they have compiled, are making educated guesses. The above tosh is all speculation. Learn to admit when you don't know a thing

Besides, there are a hundred other threads on these subjects, this isn't the one to hijack...

[Spooky]

No offence to all of the above, but the lot of you know bugger all about who is running what in Iraq / / Afghanistan / Al Qaeda or wherever. Even our intelligence and security services, with the vast amounts of information they have compiled, are making educated guesses. The above tosh is all speculation. Learn to admit when you don't know a thing

Besides, there are a hundred other threads on these subjects, this isn't the one to hijack...

no disrespect like, my speculation is just that - however by virtue of my civvy job, it is an informed speculation. not saying its 100% though.

[Bliartheliar]

Yer, I know im speculating. But its based on what Ive read. Its exactly what every reporter and expert does on the news. I'll stop though.

Theres a security threat in Birmingham at the moment. Lets hope nothing bad happens.

[Spooky]

something bads already happened. theres been a security alert requiring a mass f**k up of everyone saturday night.

knock on from thursday.

this is the terrorists aim, not just the destruction of life.

[Sarastro]

Its exactly what every reporter and expert does on the news.

My point exactly, and every reporter and tv 'expert' generally a) are full of it, and b) tend to come off as drooling morons. If you want to go into the Forces I'd suggest getting used to working from the facts.

Got nothing against theorising or speculation, it can be very interesting and helpful in the right context, but always be clear that it is just that