SA 80 A2 problems

[John_D]

"H"
As long as you kept your strings well soaked in the yolk of a dodo
birds egg your stings would last for ages, as for the woodwork colin
that was taken care of with virgin juice but alas with time both have
now become extinct, "good old Henry V he knew how to look after his
men"

Aye
John_D

[El T]

From today's Telegraph (apologies to Nomad for the length - please delete if you believe it is too long)

MoD under pressure to abandon SA-80 rifle
By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 22/07/2002)

Defence ministers are under pressure to scrap the troubled SA-80 rifle after an inspection team sent to Afghanistan found that, even after a refit, major faults still needed rectifying if it was to be used in combat again.

The modified SA-80 has to be cleaned five times a day, according to Royal Marines officers
The original SA-80, produced by Royal Ordnance, jammed repeatedly under fire in Sierra Leone and the Balkans. As a result, Heckler and Koch was paid £92 million to modify the weapon.

But defence sources said the modifications had made the weapon virtually unusable in many combat situations. Now it is thought likely that ministers will decide that they must cut their losses and go for the Heckler and Koch G36 assault rifle.

Its cost could be reduced if it is established that Heckler and Koch failed to produce a modified weapon that worked.

Earlier this month an MoD inspection team flew to Afghanistan amid reports of a number of stoppages affecting Royal Marine commandos hunting al-Qa'eda fighters.

The team, including two experts from Heckler and Koch, was horrified to find the problem was far worse than previously thought.

A demonstration by a company of Marines returning from a mission showed a third of the companies' rifles, between 30 and 40, not working properly.

The Marines were told to treat their return to Bagram by Chinook helicopter as a landing in a hostile environment. The whole exercise was filmed.

As the helicopters landed at Bagram, throwing up a huge dust cloud, the Marines poured out of the helicopters and ran to the firing range to fire their weapons.

Problems they encountered ranged from stoppages caused by dust in the rifle's working parts to magazines falling off. Even those who managed to fire their rifles had to work hard to get the safety catches off.

There was a stand-up row at a meeting in the MoD last week when a senior Army officer accused the Marines of causing the stoppages by not keeping their weapons clean.

Royal Marines officers dismissed the claim, saying that the modified weapon was too high-maintenance and they had been forced to clean it as often as five times a day.

One said: "If you're jumping out of a Chinook into that kind of heat and dust, it wouldn't matter how clean the rifle was beforehand. The minute you got off, it would be covered in shit."

Heckler and Koch experts identified five serious problems needing to be rectified:

The oil's ability to lubricate the weapon is breaking down in the high temperatures;
The impossibility of switching off the safety catch under fire;
Too much dust getting into the magazines, preventing them from putting rounds in the rifle chamber;
Too much dust getting into the rifle itself. Experts suggested a protective cover over the working parts;
The magazine is not robust enough and even the tiniest dent prevents it from staying on the rifle.
Following last week's MoD meeting, the initial findings of the inspection team have been sent to ministers.

With British troops facing action in Iraq, they will not be sent into battle with a rifle that does not work and ministers look likely to kill off the SA-80 as an expensive failure.

[Mutley]

I was in the shed at the weekend oiling and the long haired colonel had crept in. She was shouting off about something. Eventually I managed to make out that she wanted to know why I had a opened bottle of port in the shed and why I had rags hanging out of my ears.

I explained that I was cleaning and maintaining the garden tools. I was just about to test the power tools and what was actually in my ears was 4B2, which as every Bootneck knows is one of the finest ear protectors around. And didn’t she know that if you rub port on the wooden shafts of garden tools it reduces woodworm and keeps slugs of your equipment. So every good gardener keeps a bottle in their shed. After which she apologised and told me that she had only come out to tell me the news.

I was aghast that some faceless penpusher had the audacity to suggest that our lads were not cleaning their weapons correctly. My anger turned to amusement when I heard extracts from the recommended cleaning regime. It proves yet again that the MoD is in good hands and that all the jetting of to old boy net conferences and expense account lunches is money well spent, because as usual its the lads at the sharp end who are completely to blame.

Don’t worry Oil pull through

[Andy O'Pray]

Thank you EI T for the informative report. I am quite sure that the technical knowledge exists within the weapons industry, perhaps if they could combine that knowledge with a bit of common dog F@#K. The man on the ground requires a dependable weapon that will operate under any known condition, with the minimum amount of maintenance. It must also be robust enough to withstand the punishment that the user has to withstand. It is not how many rounds that the weapon can fire in a given time, it is how effective each round is. I am assuming that the user is a well trained professional, what he requires is a weapon that meets his capabilities and requirements. So get on with it.

As for the comments reportedly made by the aforesaid pongo officer. I think that we used to refer to them as w@#k.

Aye - Andy

[Sea Soldier]

Totally agree,Andy .... well said,

Though I do feel you are being a bit over generous in your description of said Pongo Officer/Politicians/Civil Servants etc, as w@#k ! ....... that suggests enough common Dog f***k to at least move the hand up & down a bit,
I think,on present performance,they have demonstrated a complete lack of common Dog f***k ..... making them merely "Grippers" !

Cheers,

[Chester]

Now it is thought likely that ministers will decide that they must cut their losses and go for the Heckler and Koch G36 assault rifle

It doesn't look too bad....... Even if it's not 7.62mm, it's worth getting a lob-on about if it is to replace the SA80 - Could always get H&K to adapt it to allow for the SA80 sling



Stripped......



"The G-36 is a departure from all previous assault rifles designed by HK. While all early HK rifles were delayed blowback designs, the G-36 is gas operated weapon, with rotating bolt locking into the barrel extension. The receiver is made from plastic with steel reinforcements, the trigger unit is contained inside the plastic pistol grip with triggerguard and is available in different versions, with or without 3-burst mode. The polymer handguard, trigger unit and magazine port are connected to the receiver by pushpins, so gun is easily field-stripped without any tools other than single cartridge or other mean to push pins away. The action somewhat resembles Armalite AR-18 or Enfield L-85 rifles, being gas operated, short piston stroke, rotating bolt locked. The charging handle is attached to the top surface of the bolt carrier and can be hinged to the left or right, to charge the gun from either side. Bolt carrier rides on single guide rod with recoil spring around it.

G-36 is fed from STANAG-compatible 30 rounds polymer magazines with translucent walls. The standard G-36 magazines had built-in clips to connect magazines one to another for faster reload"

[El Prez]

Pretty thing, want one! Magazine being clear sided would preclude the need to count discharged rounds at hairy moments, or would it? Anything for an easy life. Unfortunately the wheels move slowly, I feel sorry for anyone working with the SA80. When Jan Nanks and Ossie Bouchier introduced our squad to the SLR we were told it would soon be replaced by this new all dancing gadgety Joe90 gizmo. It took 25 years and it still doesn't work. Where'd I put me crossbow?

[Chester]

Found this on the MOD website

Q. Why didn't the MOD replace the SA80 weapon system with a new weapon system?

A. There are two reasons:

1. The A2 would achieve the required levels of reliability

2. It is more cost effective to modify the SA80 than it is to buy a new weapon system. To procure and support a new system would cost around £500 million . This includes spares, additional infrastructure (rifle racks, blank firing adapters etc), training etc. The modification programme is expected to cost around £92 million; a fifth of the cost of procuring a new weapon system.

Q Why did the Police recently buy the G36 and not the SA80 IW or LSW ?

A. The SA80 IW and LSW are no longer in production. The last one to roll-off the production line did so over eight years ago. It was not, therefore, possible for the police to acquire either the unmodified or modified SA80. N.B. The MOD Police make extensive use of the SA80 IW to guard certain establishments.

Q How will the Armed Forces be able to tell the difference between a modified and unmodified weapon?

A. For five reasons:

1. The soldiers will be issued with their own modified SA80,
2. The modified weapons will have H&KA2 stamped on it,
3. The cocking handle is visibly different,
4. Some internal components will be differently coloured,
5. It will be more reliable (Bwwwwaaaaaaaaaa-ha- ha-ha-ha )

Q. How many lives have been lost as a result of the SA80's reliability problems?

A. None (Yet..... )

Q. Will the A2 be able to be fired from the left shoulder?

A. No, they will continue to be fired from the right shoulder. Left-handed troops are, however, able to accurately fire the weapon from their right shoulder.

You can read the rest of the sh*t on the report here http://news.mod.uk/stories/2001/oct/sa80qa.doc

[Mutley]

So let me just get this right on the basis of the MoD report that

The SA80 was (I think) fully introduced about 15 years ago, so allowing for inflation it would have cost about £450m to equip the Armed Forces. Shortly after introduction it needed to be modified, not to major so lets say thats £5m. It has now had to be remodified this time at a cost of £92m.

Now as no one else will want to buy the useless piece of shite, when it is scrapped it will be worthless, and its going to cost around £500m to re-equip

Not forgetting that it was a concept weapon and so the tax payer contributed significantly to the development costs what would that have been about £50m? (using standard calculation of 10%).

So all in all thats almost £1100m.

Of course with the move to 5.56mm there was then a need to introduce more substantial support firepower. Notwithstanding that if the G-36 is introduced there is an LSW variant.

Oh and don't forget there is still a need for new comms, as Bowman has been scrapped........

Mmmmmmmmm how much extra money has Gordon promised!

[Bringer]

There's a LSW type G36, the MG36. It uses the American CMAG for 100 round capacity.


Also interesting to note is that the stock on the G36 folds in on the side, making the weapon much smaller for CQB or FIBUA operations. It can also be fired from either shoulder, so should be at least as effective as the SA-80 in urban operations.



There's also an attachable 40mm grenade launcher, but I couldn't find out if it uses the same bombs as the M203. Don't know if the SA-80 one uses the same as the M203 either, so it's kind of a moot point...

H&K claim that they have a G36 that has fired 25,000 rounds without cleaning it once, but I'm unaware of any serious field use of it yet. The German contingent of the ISAF in Afghanistan is using these, but I haven't heard good or bad things about the rifle's performance there.

[Mutley]

Built in clips to connect mags, will keep the John Waynes happy, too.

(Just to turn you green Loz) Yes I had the opportunity to fire a variant -

The G-36C which is smaller - 720mm (stock extracted) 500mm (stock folded) 228mm barrel,
and lighter - 2.8kg
but still pumps out 750 rpm

I was only on a 100m range, but it was good, recoiled like an SMG.

I swear it purrrred.

[harry hackedoff]

The cherry-boy with the weapon(ooh-er missus) is one of Hermans finest. Thats a Fallschirmjaeger to you.
On "Rest on your arse" I mentioned the Erma weapon has quite a bit of the look of the German WW11 para rifle about it.( Fallschirmjaegergewehr, and don`t correct my spelling)
If you get the chance at the R.M.A. weekend at Lympstone, the museum has both weapons.Take a look, if you can drag yourself out of the mess of course

Aye, Harry


P.S. Correct me if I`m wrong, but wasn`t it Steyr-Puch who first introduced see-through mags over thirty years ago? Step forward, Shoulders

[Bringer]

I just finished reading Julian Thompsons Royal Marines: From Sea Soldiers to a Special Force, and one thing struck me in that book. In Borneo, Royals and SAS and Ghurkas were all using the Armalite (M16) and it sounded as if it was quite well received.

Other books I've read (Mike Curtis's Close Quarters Battle and a couple of McNab's books) have also mentioned how well they liked the M16s. The pictures of Brigade Patrol Troop I've seen have also included M16s and M203s.

Why then, with such support among the troops for the rifle, did the MoD abandon the Aramalite system?

[ratso]

The Armalite is still in service with certain special ops and saw service with Mountain and Arctic in the Falklands. The use of the grenade launcher has seen this a well used tried and tested weapon.

[El Prez]

For the same reason we build and buy our aircraft within Europe when the Yanks have been using superior equipment for the previous twenty years that meets and exceeds our requirements............ jobs and industry. The classic case is Westland. Building and designing aircraft which are almost out of date by the time they reach the front line. For every Merlin reaching the front line sqns today we could have had Sea Hawks 10 years ago at a third of the price. Place the fabled Eurofighter/Hurricane against the F16 or F18, which wins in armament, range, flexibility, carrier friendly etc etc, and their cheaper? Buy Elmer. it works.
While I'm banging my wee drum, why aren't the Corps getting Apaches according to the AAC? Why is the army testing the arse off an aircraft which has been operational for yonks? Who needs close air support from helos carrying missiles and cannon, the Blues and Royals or Royal?
Oh... here comes nurse, just the Mogadon please.