Sul, it was a general 'you', not meant to be addressed at you specifically, sorry for the confusion. If anyone, it's addressed at precisely the young kids who come on here without having been through any of it (and though you doubtless have more experience, I'm not just speculating about military training either) and w@#k on about how X is better than Y. Also, it's not just RM - I've known plenty of Para Reg lads or wannabes who do the same thing.
It's all good as a bit of banter, but when you get people honestly believing the 'hat' chat, claiming that X is better than Y because they do 2 extra weeks basic, or dismissing other blokes who have earned the same beret as they have just because of their capbadge, I get bored. Yes, I know CTC & Para Reg strive to reach a higher standard than others from day 1 of depot / basic as you say - but the rest of the forces don't just sign you on the line and badge you up, which often seems to be the implication here. I also know that standard of any basic training is pretty dependent on the abilities of your troop / section commander. I got lucky and had a mega SC on the CIC, but others had ones who were just plain bad teachers, however good their skills were. The same is going to be true of any training establishment - you may well end up with a better infanteer passing out of the Rifles than the Marines, just because he had a better teacher, even though the Marine training is on average tougher. But more than that, unless a soldier has literally just exited basic, I don't give a toss about where he went to school; I'd judge him on the capabilities I can see, the performance he puts in when it matters & his depth of experience.
So yes, I get a bit irate when older & wiser members seem to promote the general superiority of all things [insert regiment], because it just creates biases within the lads who come here with an open mind about where they want to go in the military, and reinforces fairly stupid ones in those who are already biased. Plenty of time for regimental prejudices later in their careers, but on here it's a bit like a general recruiter trying to push you only towards his capbadge.
PS & I suspect we just plain disagree about what it means to be a 'commando'. Neither the Navy nor the RM own nor invented that designation. RM and only RM are bootnecks, but many other soldiers have been, are, and will be commandos.
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3 CDO BDE to include 1 RIFLES
Fair shout opps. As for:
...you know that's the way and always will be
but you'll hopefully also realise from your own unit that there's often a feeling of 'the best don't brag' and taking a lot of this (from other units) with a pinch of salt. Hopefully your unit will foster the same kind of respect and humility that ours did.
I agree with you mostly and a good example is that I have hung my head in shame on an exercise (the only time you'll come face to face) where we were out "fire and manouvred" by a perce unit because they had drilled it more than us. At the end of the day though I was convinced that we had a different type of person than they did and people that could put up with a lot more hardship.
The real problem I have is that the Corps has always held the Achnacarry heritage as sacrosanct and 'standards' is a big rallying cry at CTC. True enough basic training is only that - and the Achnacarry training was only six weeks - but they were different times and the army they joined was probably a bit different to todays. Since 1945 the Corps has measured itself up against those men (still does) and at some point it was decided that in a more modern era they needed 30 (and then 32) weeks to turn out the same kind of product.
My real concern is that lads may not want to go for the full monty if they can do basic infantry training, pass out, build themselves up and then do the next installment before giving it the large one about being a commando. It doesn't produce the same end product. Fully appreciated that it may be a case of pass out, tour in Afghan, cdo cse but it's still not the same thing. I also realise that I'm generalising and some of the attached ranks that I knew could have (and should have ) done the 30 weeks but some, quite obviously, wouldn't have hacked it. Good as they all were, they didn't have the same culture or ethos.
I honestly mean no disrespect to army units (and good effort as a para for not going for that chad 'hat' thing) but why not just crack on at being what they are - why do they need another badge? Too many lads in the Corps are getting pinged for things like drives courses after having done the full monty so druadan's suggestion makes a lot of sense. I also don't like the idea of stacks of bootnecks being taken out of circulation and reserved for a training role (to get a battalion though a 'tarts and vicars' cdo cse) rather than being bootnecks.
ps Mark Urban's book The Rifles is a cracking read and a must for anybody wanting to know the mindset of an 'elite' unit - which they undoubtedly were - and no doubt still are but in within their current role. And I never came across any British Army infantry unit that couldn't knock spots off a foreign counterpart (and the USMC for that matter).
older & wiser members seem to promote the general superiority of all things...
...you know that's the way and always will be
but you'll hopefully also realise from your own unit that there's often a feeling of 'the best don't brag' and taking a lot of this (from other units) with a pinch of salt. Hopefully your unit will foster the same kind of respect and humility that ours did.I agree with you mostly and a good example is that I have hung my head in shame on an exercise (the only time you'll come face to face) where we were out "fire and manouvred" by a perce unit because they had drilled it more than us. At the end of the day though I was convinced that we had a different type of person than they did and people that could put up with a lot more hardship.
The real problem I have is that the Corps has always held the Achnacarry heritage as sacrosanct and 'standards' is a big rallying cry at CTC. True enough basic training is only that - and the Achnacarry training was only six weeks - but they were different times and the army they joined was probably a bit different to todays. Since 1945 the Corps has measured itself up against those men (still does) and at some point it was decided that in a more modern era they needed 30 (and then 32) weeks to turn out the same kind of product.
My real concern is that lads may not want to go for the full monty if they can do basic infantry training, pass out, build themselves up and then do the next installment before giving it the large one about being a commando. It doesn't produce the same end product. Fully appreciated that it may be a case of pass out, tour in Afghan, cdo cse but it's still not the same thing. I also realise that I'm generalising and some of the attached ranks that I knew could have (and should have
) done the 30 weeks but some, quite obviously, wouldn't have hacked it. Good as they all were, they didn't have the same culture or ethos.I honestly mean no disrespect to army units (and good effort as a para for not going for that chad 'hat' thing) but why not just crack on at being what they are - why do they need another badge? Too many lads in the Corps are getting pinged for things like drives courses after having done the full monty so druadan's suggestion makes a lot of sense. I also don't like the idea of stacks of bootnecks being taken out of circulation and reserved for a training role (to get a battalion though a 'tarts and vicars' cdo cse) rather than being bootnecks.
ps Mark Urban's book The Rifles is a cracking read and a must for anybody wanting to know the mindset of an 'elite' unit - which they undoubtedly were - and no doubt still are but in within their current role. And I never came across any British Army infantry unit that couldn't knock spots off a foreign counterpart (and the USMC
for that matter).Per Flank, Per Tank
Ha, no bragging in Para Reg?! I do know what you mean, one of the things I like about the RM I meet is precisely that they don't w@#k on about it all the time.Sully wrote:but you'll hopefully also realise from your own unit that there's often a feeling of 'the best don't brag'
& by the way I'm not maroon - completed the training but got injured off P-Coy, been with 4 PARA for last year but didn't get fit enough to take it again, & what with RMAS for the next year, probably not going to get a shot at it again in the near future (starting Sandhurst in a week and I have a smashed kneecap ffs). But watch this space... anyway, probably means I have very personal experience of how much you don't learn from basic, but a slightly inflated sense of what P-Coy or AACC mean.
But most of them in 'elite' attached units do precisely that - 7RHA, 29Cdo & so on are pretty full on proud of their unit & their job, and rightly so. None of the ones I've met let you mistake them for Para Reg or RM & will correct you if you do that, but they do call themselves paratroopers and commandos, and have earned that right in my opinion.I honestly mean no disrespect to army units (and good effort as a para for not going for that chad 'hat' thing) but why not just crack on at being what they are - why do they need another badge? Too many lads are getting pinged for things like drives courses after having done the full monty. I also don't like the idea of stacks of bootnecks being taken out of circulation and reserved for a training role (to get a battalion though a 'tarts and vicars' cdo cse) rather than being bootnecks.
As for soldiers from the general Army wanting to go for airborne/cdo, I find it hard to condemn that. I don't think you have to worry about RM recruitment so long as we encourage a culture of wanting to be the best - and that's what other units going for AACC/P-Coy is. Though it won't mean you're a bootneck or give you a Para Reg capbadge, the physical training & mental toughness they develop will still make them better soldiers. Certainly for the Reg, 'role-related' training isn't really the point, since mass combat jumps have been unheard of in our forces for a while - the point is proving yourself through P-Coy, and that has worth whichever capbadge you wear. For some, the courses are just badge collecting so they can boast to their mates or look ally to the lasses - but let's face it, they don't tend to get through, do they? For most who take & pass those courses, as with other tough courses, it's about drive and a will to better yourself, and that is surely a good thing?
But I would say that, because as of yet, I'm still one of them!
PS Also possible that we're entering something of a renewed period of these things due to op requirements. Original airborne / cdo units were all sorts, both inf and support, with no distinction - becuase they all got thrust into the shit on whatever beach, bridge or bridgehead was nearby. Same thing is often happening on ops today - whatever combat arms capbadge you are wearing, you're often required to do the same basic inf job from what I hear. If those experiences in combat garner new respect & less distinction between attached arms & their inf battalion cores from Para / RM, then good thing say I.
PPS Example I forgot: I have never, but never, seen a Para/Cdo attached medic get called a hat or similar by anyone, even the most fully fledged, badged up, 22 year killing machine - in fact, they get given more respect than most badged toms or JNCOs. Suspect you get pretty full on for anyone who that obviously saves your bits under fire. But good gunners, engineers, air support, do the same job of saving infantry arse but with less face time - they should really get acknowledged for it too.
Sarastro, you make a lot of sense mate. I think the warry picture of that Rifles dude on the first page caused a lot of my irritation - I found that there were more 'primo's' amongst attached ranks than bootnecks and it was a constant drip that they would pick up decent courses like the para cse, pilots e&e etc... ahead of us. They were also always paid a lot more than us - so maybe I'm just bitter and twisted about it 
Getting off topic. Unlucky with P-Coy and good luck when (if) you have another go (assuming your going for para reg officer) but in true bootneck fashion "how hard can it be?" mate
A nod troop ahead of us in training had a para stripey and instead of going to Penhale for adventure training (abseiling, climbing, canoeing) in week 25 they went to Aldershot for P-Coy test week 
What a proff? Mind you I seem to remember at Penhale much of our sea canoeing involved running up and down honking sand dunes.....carrying canoes Much harder than any test we did and I doubt lads will share joyful experiences like that on the AACC - but we were better people for the experience
Getting off topic. Unlucky with P-Coy and good luck when (if) you have another go (assuming your going for para reg officer) but in true bootneck fashion "how hard can it be?" mate
A nod troop ahead of us in training had a para stripey and instead of going to Penhale for adventure training (abseiling, climbing, canoeing) in week 25 they went to Aldershot for P-Coy test week What a proff? Mind you I seem to remember at Penhale much of our sea canoeing involved running up and down honking sand dunes.....carrying canoes Much harder than any test we did and I doubt lads will share joyful experiences like that on the AACC - but we were better people for the experience Per Flank, Per Tank
Incredible, we have RMs and Army lads fighting and dying together at this very moment and all we get is my Dad is better than your Dad rubbish. Grow up some off you.
Plus on this subject, I've always thought the more Blokes the less stagging on, fatigues and more down time. Think your self's lucky the Riffles are helping you boys out
Plus it was said earlier on this post that 1Rifles lads will try and pass them selfs as RMs down the Pub or something. *BOLL*CKS* The Rifles are proud of there own traditions, there Light Infantry with there own drill and History. They were the SF of there day. To say lads in the Rifles are RM wanabe's is total crap, and comes from the mouths of people who are up there own backsides
Plus on this subject, I've always thought the more Blokes the less stagging on, fatigues and more down time. Think your self's lucky the Riffles are helping you boys out
Plus it was said earlier on this post that 1Rifles lads will try and pass them selfs as RMs down the Pub or something. *BOLL*CKS* The Rifles are proud of there own traditions, there Light Infantry with there own drill and History. They were the SF of there day. To say lads in the Rifles are RM wanabe's is total crap, and comes from the mouths of people who are up there own backsides
Hey Napoleon. What possible interest would you have in a forum about the RM? Shouldn't you be name-dropping about your bessie oppo HRH Harry somewhere else?
I think you're hallucinating or just making things up. Dreaming about people telling stories in pubs? Either way you seem to have some sort of a 'thing' about bootnecks:
viewtopic.php?p=205371&highlight=&sid=f ... 453#205371
If you felt that strongly you would have carried on the discussion there instead of sliding over here to the 'impressionables'. Sad cnut. Do I go over to army forums and bang on about what a complete embarrassment B Sqn HCR were when we were trying to instruct them in the Arctic many moons ago and they cried off - no. I'm even a bit uncomfortable mentioning it now because it means nothing - crap officer, some decent lads but a general lack of fortitude - that's all and it was then and there.
PA0578 made some good points on that thread and I've had this discussion in person with a former RGJ colour stripey. I have more in common with him than I'll ever have with a stroker like you and I have paid full respects to a renown regiment.
You just seem to have some weird "what about me" inferiority complex - that's probably in your mind rather than other peoples - something for you to sort out.
This might help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
I think you're hallucinating or just making things up. Dreaming about people telling stories in pubs?
Either way you seem to have some sort of a 'thing' about bootnecks:viewtopic.php?p=205371&highlight=&sid=f ... 453#205371
If you felt that strongly you would have carried on the discussion there instead of sliding over here to the 'impressionables'. Sad cnut. Do I go over to army forums and bang on about what a complete embarrassment B Sqn HCR were when we were trying to instruct them in the Arctic many moons ago and they cried off - no. I'm even a bit uncomfortable mentioning it now because it means nothing - crap officer, some decent lads but a general lack of fortitude - that's all and it was then and there.
PA0578 made some good points on that thread and I've had this discussion in person with a former RGJ colour stripey. I have more in common with him than I'll ever have with a stroker like you and I have paid full respects to a renown regiment.
You just seem to have some weird "what about me" inferiority complex - that's probably in your mind rather than other peoples - something for you to sort out.
This might help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Per Flank, Per Tank
Sully have a look at the Army forum the RMs dont gey a mention, same with the PARAs and RAF Forums. You come on here and half of it is Army slagging. I think its you guys who have the problem. Im just pissed off with it. And it seems you lot are great at giving it but can't bloody take it.
And I aint got to proove myself to you or anyone else on here. So I will continue to serve the HM Forces and you continue to spend your life on the Internet. And anyone with the Occupation of Peoples Champion is obviously up his own arse
And I aint got to proove myself to you or anyone else on here. So I will continue to serve the HM Forces and you continue to spend your life on the Internet. And anyone with the Occupation of Peoples Champion is obviously up his own arse
HCR
You have proved yourself to be what you are. A serving soldier who has been to the pointed end. And good for you. My Cousin has just left the RHA after 22 plus years service. I'm mounting his medals in a frame, he's got seven of the buggers and he's earned them.
Horses for courses for Gods Sake! Try calming down and get the bloody chip removed from your shoulder ASAP. Read what I've written ref the forces, be they Army, Crabfats, Matelots or Bootnecks. I have nought but praise for all of them.
In these times the forces are fully stretched 100% of the time. I know guys in all of them and as one they say the same thing. Were all in the same boat. And the boat is rocking.
I myself would not like to be in the forces these days with a wife and kids. I thought it was bad enough doing a 6 month tour in NI or doing my thing in the Oman or some other shithole place. I know you think that Bootnecks consider themselves to be the dogs bollox and that pisses you off in no uncertain terms.
Bootnecks have always been like that, it's been the way from our first day in the Corps until the day we die. Once a Marine always Marine. Tis the way we are for Christ Sake! And it will never change. It's drilled into us from day one, "YOUR THE BEST!" and if we didn't believe it we would not be Bootnecks!!! If you don't like it then tough!
Artist
You have proved yourself to be what you are. A serving soldier who has been to the pointed end. And good for you. My Cousin has just left the RHA after 22 plus years service. I'm mounting his medals in a frame, he's got seven of the buggers and he's earned them.
Horses for courses for Gods Sake! Try calming down and get the bloody chip removed from your shoulder ASAP. Read what I've written ref the forces, be they Army, Crabfats, Matelots or Bootnecks. I have nought but praise for all of them.
In these times the forces are fully stretched 100% of the time. I know guys in all of them and as one they say the same thing. Were all in the same boat. And the boat is rocking.
I myself would not like to be in the forces these days with a wife and kids. I thought it was bad enough doing a 6 month tour in NI or doing my thing in the Oman or some other shithole place. I know you think that Bootnecks consider themselves to be the dogs bollox and that pisses you off in no uncertain terms.
Bootnecks have always been like that, it's been the way from our first day in the Corps until the day we die. Once a Marine always Marine. Tis the way we are for Christ Sake! And it will never change. It's drilled into us from day one, "YOUR THE BEST!" and if we didn't believe it we would not be Bootnecks!!! If you don't like it then tough!
Artist
Yea and it came to pass that in the begining!The lower creatures of the land,God called soldiers.And with a twinkle in his eye,and a sense of humour God gave them trousers too short,and jackets to large,and pockets to warm their hands.And to adorn their uniforms,God gave them ribbons...and patches...and stars...and bells.He gave them emblems...and crests....and all sorts of shiny things that glittered...and devices that dangled..but when your God you tend to get carried away.
Who needs the World as your Oyster,When you've had the world as your cap Badge
Still lurking then JR?
And on the 7th day, God rested. He looked down upon the earth, and still was not happy. So he thought about his labours, and on the 8th day, in his infinite wisdom, he created a divine creature, and this he called a Royal Marine. These Royal Marines, who God created in his own image, were to be of the land, and the sea, and the air, and he gave them many wonderful uniforms.
He gave them practical fighting uniforms, so they could wage war against the forces of Satan and the Devil (henceforth known as Terry ). He gave them smart suits for their daily work and training so they may be sharp and ready. He gave them evening and dress uniforms, stylish handsome things, so they might promenade with the ladies on a Saturday night and impress the hell out of everybody.
And so, at the end of the 8th day, God looked upon the earth, and saw that it was good. But was he happy? No! God was not happy, because in the course of his labours he had forgotten one thing. God did not have a Royal Marines uniform! He thought about it, and pondered over it, and finally satisfied himself with the thought that, well, not everyone can be a Royal Marine.
Esprit de Corps: it's what sets us apart from so many others, and whilst part of that is self-confidence bordering perhaps on arrogance, another equally important part is that of humility. It is rare to find a Bootneck who is not chilled out and just gets on with everybody, no matter what their cap badge.
And on the 7th day, God rested. He looked down upon the earth, and still was not happy. So he thought about his labours, and on the 8th day, in his infinite wisdom, he created a divine creature, and this he called a Royal Marine. These Royal Marines, who God created in his own image, were to be of the land, and the sea, and the air, and he gave them many wonderful uniforms.
He gave them practical fighting uniforms, so they could wage war against the forces of Satan and the Devil (henceforth known as Terry
). He gave them smart suits for their daily work and training so they may be sharp and ready. He gave them evening and dress uniforms, stylish handsome things, so they might promenade with the ladies on a Saturday night and impress the hell out of everybody.And so, at the end of the 8th day, God looked upon the earth, and saw that it was good. But was he happy? No! God was not happy, because in the course of his labours he had forgotten one thing. God did not have a Royal Marines uniform! He thought about it, and pondered over it, and finally satisfied himself with the thought that, well, not everyone can be a Royal Marine.
Esprit de Corps: it's what sets us apart from so many others, and whilst part of that is self-confidence bordering perhaps on arrogance, another equally important part is that of humility. It is rare to find a Bootneck who is not chilled out and just gets on with everybody, no matter what their cap badge.
