Commando on the front line, Episode 4.

[AJtothemax]

Dangermouse,

I intend to bitch since this programme had done nothing so
far as to enhance the reputation of the Royal Marines. As I stated
on the thread of 'Episode One' there was an far more interesting
and better constructed documentary several years back. It also
demonstrated the individual success of each recruit and included
resignation interviews and was an accurate and factual account
of just how demanding the CCse. with all its ups and downs.
Fortunately today the end product of recruit training at CTCRM is
just as good as ever and this has been widely demonstrated in
current hostilities.

Chas.

Chas, do you think they might have done that to avoid someones parents saying "My son is NOT doing that!". Someones parents then turning into many parents and individuals. If you see what I'm saying?

[Chas]

AJ,

Very good thinking. As an old fart the thought never crossed
my mind. Since the Corps is currently 580 men understrength
maybe a real, gritty exposition of the rigours of commando training
might inhibit recruitment. Possibly a mere pastiche is better and more PC.
The perception of the military has changed dramatically over recent years
and to its detriment. A major fault lies with this wretched, venal, squalid and
shameless Labour Government which both uses and abuses all the magnificent
service men and women from all Arms.
Not one member of this Government has ever served in the Armed Forces.

[Ty]

I hear what your sayinh AJ, and Chaz. However if they give false representation of what the Marines really are, ultimately, the Marines are losing money off the recruits. If they join thinking they are gonna just have to carry some back packs around all night, camping in your back yard style, they are going to be in for a real shock.

I can't remember the numbers, but I read that each recruits gear and food /training costs upwards to $75,000 for the 32 weeks. If you have troops dropping out after the halfway mark, your not gaining any ground.

I find it's better to show how TOUGH it really is. Then you have the people that see the challenge, and prepare themselves for it. Instead you have the people that say " Wow, looks cool, and not TOO hard, I wanna try !! ". They make it a few weeks, and go back home crying to mommy.

Im under the impression the 4 Commando tests are the hardest ones in the Marines, so thats what Im training for ( running with my brothers Canadian Forces gear on ). However I know there are going to be things that are going to surprise me, that I might even find harder, such as even the classroom work.

I just hope by showing what seems like the " softer " side of the Marines doesn't give false hope to any recruits.

[Chas]

Ty,

The tests are at the end of training.
Prior to taking them you will have
been living in the field practising all
your battle skills. You will be physically
very knackered, suffering from sleep
derivation and possibly harbouring an
injury. The course never seems to end
and it is a case of mind over matter,
head down and just hacking it. You will
at sometime have to find an inner strength.
As for TV, I would prefer that any series of
this type was factual showing all the beastliness
and hardship involved in earning a 'coveted green
beret.'

[azard9330]

i liek this series and so far havent missed an episode iand i think its showing the right things to get the right ssort of recruits its showing both sides the diging deep and the enjoyment of passing the things im quite pleased with it and ill be there very soon and experiencing all of it its a shame thats terry john got back trooped though he was a well good guy

[Wholley]

i liek this series and so far havent missed an episode iand i think its showing the right things to get the right ssort of recruits its showing both sides the diging deep and the enjoyment of passing the things im quite pleased with it and ill be there very soon and experiencing all of it its a shame thats terry john got back trooped though he was a well good guy

I really am speechless which is unusual for me.
What is it with you people?
Are you that dumb or can you not be bothered?
There is no excuse for this ignorance or laziness and it will not be tolerated

[Ty]

Ty,

The tests are at the end of training.
Prior to taking them you will have
been living in the field practising all
your battle skills. You will be physically
very knackered, suffering from sleep
derivation and possibly harbouring an
injury. The course never seems to end
and it is a case of mind over matter,
head down and just hacking it. You will
at sometime have to find an inner strength.
As for TV, I would prefer that any series of
this type was factual showing all the beastliness
and hardship involved in earning a 'coveted green
beret.'

Well yes, I know they are at the end. Im just getting at the T.V show so far has never showed anything even remotely close to as physically demanding. The closest was the last episode with the 4 mile speed march. The yomping in Dartmoor of course is difficult, but I grew up in the outdoors on the Canadian Shield, I've been back packing with my brothers for weeks at a time. Im not saying I think I can walk in and pass, I KNOW I can't, but I wanna see why I can't. I want to see the Corporals physically BREAK these troops cause Im pretty sure they have too, and Im quite sure you KNOW they do Chas.

[Mitch]

I agree with Ty and Chas. You can't say that showing the training as easy will get more recruits because they will be of the wrong caliber. If you show it for what it is then the right type of person becomes interested and takes that interest further to join. Perfect example of this is a poster I had as a wee lad that went on my wall. It had a few pictures of guys really hanging out on the commando tests and generally on the assault course. Then there was a little bit of writing with words to the effect of "this might put you off but if not call the AFCO". That is the right way to go about it. That way the right person is recruited and you don't go wasting money on recruits with not a chance in hell of passing. On another note, I may not find the show that amazing but I will still watch all the episodes just to get the chance to watch some training and I will be waiting in anticipation for the longer episodes next year.

Mitch

[AJtothemax]

AJ,

Very good thinking. As an old fart the thought never crossed
my mind. Since the Corps is currently 580 men understrength
maybe a real, gritty exposition of the rigours of commando training
might inhibit recruitment. Possibly a mere pastiche is better and more PC.
The perception of the military has changed dramatically over recent years
and to its detriment. A major fault lies with this wretched, venal, squalid and
shameless Labour Government which both uses and abuses all the magnificent
service men and women from all Arms.
Not one member of this Government has ever served in the Armed Forces.

Thanks for the reply there Chas, I know I don't have to tell you, but from what i can see, you're dead right.

I agree with Ty and Chas. You can't say that showing the training as easy will get more recruits because they will be of the wrong caliber. If you show it for what it is then the right type of person becomes interested and takes that interest further to join. Perfect example of this is a poster I had as a wee lad that went on my wall. It had a few pictures of guys really hanging out on the commando tests and generally on the assault course. Then there was a little bit of writing with words to the effect of "this might put you off but if not call the AFCO". That is the right way to go about it. That way the right person is recruited and you don't go wasting money on recruits with not a chance in hell of passing

Yeah, I see your point and I think it should be like that too. But people want both things these days, it's like that wante to be spoon fed their entire lives. Especially when you read about the likes of people who say they'll join up in the army, but they don't want to go abroad, or to Iraq.

Whats the point in joining the armed forces then you prat?!

[Darren82]

Paddy Ashdown was SBS apparently, just a shame the Liberal Democrats never are going to get a sniff of power.

That and the fact he isn't leader of the party anymore!

[AJtothemax]

Paddy Ashdown was SBS apparently, just a shame the Liberal Democrats never are going to get a sniff of power.

That and the fact he isn't leader of the party anymore!

They haven't wont since the early 1900's because they used to be the only politcal party that ran this country. Oh, and they used to use a term called 'lessay fare' which basically meant "let the people sort it out amoungst themselves" because lower class people were simply deemed ignorant. Even though they're the ones that make up the majority of the vote, even today.

T*ssers probably still haven't changed.

[803troop]

"That is true this isnt a true represtentation of training. For Example 4 miles in 40 mins???? What the fcuk is that about. They make it sound easy! They didnt show any of the phys that these guys did the day before that or any of the other phys that these guys must have gone through training apart from the gym test. Feel sorry for Recruit John, if only he had stayed with the troop on the first run."

Speed marching as always been done a a 10 min/mile pace. Look at the commando tests. 9 miles in 90 minutes. Do the math. I'd like to see anyone keep at a faster pace carrying battle order over a sustained period of time. when you get to training and you do it ou won't be going "uh, 10 minute mile, peice of piss."

If you're not built up to it you'll be hanging out of your hoop. Put a 22lb rucksack on and carry a 9lb peice of kit in your arms and do 4 miles. Let us know how you get on.

Baz

[Stokey_14]

Put a 22lb rucksack on and carry a 9lb peice of kit in your arms and do 4 miles. Let us know how you get on.

You've just inspired me

Might actually do this for some fun soon, sound's like a challenge (perhaps a bit more in the Bergen as I wont have 9 lb of gear to carry.) I know me and my mate where averaging 15 minuet miles whilst training for the walk I did... not great but that was walking/talking/messing around and not speed marching on my own I recon if I did deep I could perhaps come close to this time

I will have to wait and see

Stokey

[Von]

...or being a beefer I thought being in the Corps was about quiet and applied determination not flowery demonstrative failure - let the septics keep that one.

Heyup Von, I can't speak with any authority on officer training, I've just come across various products of it but...

a lot of the skills to a higher standard (such as navigation

...you've heard the one about an officer with a map In any given troop I'd hazard a guess that the most of the 'troop' type skills of time-served NCO's are much higher than most officers. And a skill is just that, a skill - it develops with time and experience. A young troop officer tasked with something he couldn't do would in my experience get someone else to do it - some in a good way, some in a bad and there you have the difference between good and bad officers. Delegation is an essential part of leadership and administration

I don't recall being in awe of YO's or 'posh nods' as our DS called them. They tended to be ok when they had 'settled' down a bit after training and had gotten over themselves. Some were great to be around and good people but lads joining up should not be under the illusion that the commission earns universal respect or that they will be able to form friendships across the commissioned/non commissioned divide. Out of CTC I heard the term 'pig' used more often than 'officer' - didn't really use it myself though.

There seems to be a misconception here that officers have to be more bootneck than bootnecks and some kind of superheroes. In my humble opinion, anybody who can do the 30 miler in 8 hours can do it in 7 and so on - we were held up on ours. The role of officer means that they have to administer and control the troop (although stripeys were invariably better at this) not to be supermen and out-do what 'their' men do. I've seen an officer (Captain at the time but went on to become quite senior in the Corps) fail his BFT (FFS ) I think it's a bit of a myth....rant over

Chas - I knew a former FFL 2 REP bootneck who said exactly the same thing about the Corps - but he did say the FFL was a bit more brutal.

Sully,
My point wasn't that in a troop the OC will be the best at map reading, my point was that if an officer can't map read well when he comes out of Lympstone it will stand out far more than if a recruit can't. The officer will look at wat if he can't get it right, at best in front of his troop only and at worst in front of the whole Commando. I agree with you that the wise officer will delegate to the hairy arse ML Sgt or Cpl who will undoubtely do it better having 10 or 5 years of map reading practice on the YO but if the 2Lt is put on the spot by a Company Commander who says ' I want your troop point and I want you to do the map reading' then you they are not given a lot of choice (and yes I have seen it done as previously mentioned with that Company the point for the Commando). This is why a YO is taken to a far more advanced level on map reading in their basic training.
I agree with you that the commission should not earn universal respect although I have never felt that in the Corps there was any danger of that happening, the Corps is far too meritocratic to fall for that. I agree with you that some recruits could undoubtely do their Commando test in the times that YOs have although in terms of assessing the level of both sets of training I think only Corps commission lads can give you a fair view on that; I remember talking to one Corps commission officer (King's badge as a rct) about his YO training and him saying it was infinitely harder than rct training and that most of his rct troop would not have lasted the physical pace (he referred to a point on his Commando course where they yomped the SF route over Pen y fan with the Falklands weight of kit (130lbs).

With regards to the role of the officer being to administer and control their troop I would agree that this is part of their role but so is fighting the troop. Can a good troop sergeant do all that, yes of course they can but to come back to my earlier point a troop sergeant will have been in the Corps for a decade or so and will be half way through his career, the YO might only be 19 and will in any case be at the beginning of their career; I have heard it say that all troop commanders are there as trainee company commanders not as troop commanders; a debatable point but I think it frames the issue in the right terms.

With regards to the Captain failing his BFT I would agree that this a a poor shout but I have likewise seen Sergeant Majors fail BFTs (even on the times allowed for over 35s) but I put it down to that individual being lettin his standards slip; it does not make me think any less highly of the Sergeant Majors or other NCOs in the Corps.

In any case my personal view is that the machine that is Lympstone is first rate whether it is turning out recruit, Cpls, Sgts or Officers. At the end of the day all of these ranks are there to do something different and think they all do that in a world beating way.

Over to you Sully for the return rant!
Von

[Dangermouse]

Dangermouse,

I intend to bitch since this programme had done nothing so
far as to enhance the reputation of the Royal Marines. As I stated
on the thread of 'Episode One' there was an far more interesting
and better constructed documentary several years back. It also
demonstrated the individual success of each recruit and included
resignation interviews and was an accurate and factual account
of just how demanding the CCse. with all its ups and downs.
Fortunately today the end product of recruit training at CTCRM is
just as good as ever and this has been widely demonstrated in
current hostilities.

Chas.

Alright, so it's not as good as other programs. But it's better than nothing. If you dislike it, write to the documentary makers. As for 'enhancing the reputation of the Royal Marines, as far as I'm concerned their reputation does not need enchancing.