AS LEBANON BURNS ( WHERE THE F..K IS MR BLAIR )

[borisimo]

too true sneaky beaky, plus the difference is we are involved in a peacekeeping/rebuilding operation there it wouldnt be helpful to bomb areas back to how they were before. Israel has had its soldiers kidnapped over a border by terrorists that operate with impunity in a sovereign state. It is a totally different situation.

If Lebanon can't put its house in order then it is up to Israel to do, and they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If Lebanon was really that bothered they could have asked the international community for help in getting rid of hezbollah, but they didnt because their government is so corrupted, so they aren't totally innocent at the end of the day.

And don't forget they are surrounded by 2 extremist, facist countries that would like nothing more than to see them erased from the map, can you really blame them for being a tad excitable?

This could have all been stopped if Hezbollah had been forced to hand back the soldiers. Or maybe just not done it in the first place.

[Sarastro]

The big difference was that they were British citizens!

As opposed to British soldiers?

Actually, I was thinking of the two (allegedly) SF soldiers who were held at a police station in Basra by Shiite milita, round about the same time as the burning Warrior pictures splashed across the front pages last year. Our government may generally be lacking in the crotch area, but as far as I remember, they had enough balls to make a wall breach with a tank, go in with roughly a platoon-size force, and get them.

Israel has two soldiers being held by a Shiite militia in southern Lebanon, and they have bombed the entire country, and are invading with an entire army. It's a bullshit excuse for a fight they already wanted. Trying to annihilate Hezbollah is absolutely the last way to get those two soldiers back; they are going to end up dead in a bunker somewhere, either shot by Hezbollah, or bombed by their own side.

I realise they are two completely different situations, that's my point. Using the captured soldiers to justify strategic bombing & invasion is pure rubbish on a level with Lyndon Johnson using the Gulf of Tonkin to justify Vietnam. Israel want Hezbollah out of the picture, and this is the excuse. Let's not pretend that there's any he-started-it blame game to be argued here or noble military camraderie on display.

[Marina]

What is absolutely disgraceful is that the UN are so innefective in getting a ceasefire implemented.
THE US and UK governments...those who have influence over Israel , well, they don't seem have conscience. They have created more enemies for themselves worldwide
I have lost faith in humanity now !

I feel sorry for the children on this planet, they have to live through all this conflicts.

I wish I was born a bird instead of a human being !

[borisimo]

The only country Israel will listen to is the US.

I agree with you sarastro that they wanted the fight with hezbollah regardless, but in the long term that can only be a good thing (the removal of a terrorist group), in the main Lebanon is full of good people, the bad apples just need to be removed, preferably by a NATO force once Israel has softened them up. And have their security forces built up so they don't have to bow to pressure from Syria and Iran in the future.

[Sarastro]

Except that will never happen Borismo: no NATO force is going in to Lebanon, they are all well aware that Israel-Palestine has been a tit-for-tat quagmire for 50 years, shows no hope of getting better, and they would be insane to send troops there. Everyone wants a solution, but nobody wants to be involved.

All that this will achieve is the destruction of some Hezbollah hardware while boosting their standing in Lebanon, hardening opinion against Israel, and putting the knife into the first vaguely independent and moderate Lebanese government for decades. Instead of trying to cultivate what could have been their first and only ally in the region, Israel decides to launch massive punative military action for the actions of one insurgent group, and inevitably make everyone hate them, and make the insurgent group seem like they have a point. Presumably they figure that strategy has worked so well in Palestine...

Seriously, didn't any of these guys go to school? Don't they remember that when the teacher punished everyone in the class for the actions of one kid, everyone hated the teacher, not the kid?

Marina, the UN is a joke. Their military/peacekeeping wing is a very, very unfunny joke. Everyone knows this already, it's just taking some time for the UN to work it out.

[Marina]

Does that mean its tailor made for Israel to grab more border land from Lebanon and use it as a buffer zone

That's all very well, in fact Hezbollah can never be eradicated with 50% of the muslims being shia. They will just lie low for some years, re-arm and re-group with the help of Iran. Shias are determined in their ideology.
I know Lebanese people of different factions are now supporting hezbollah (previoussly they didn't) because bascially, they are defending their country

[Sonne]

Does that mean its tailor made for Israel to grab more border land from Lebanon and use it as a buffer zone

That's all very well, in fact Hezbollah can never be eradicated with 50% of the muslims being shia. They will just lie low for some years, re-arm and re-group with the help of Iran. Shias are determined in their ideology.
I know Lebanese people of different factions are now supporting hezbollah (previoussly they didn't) because bascially, they are defending their country

An Excellent point. Unfortunately moderates are lending support to Hezbollah becasue it appears they they are the only ones fighting against the Israeli assault. Obviously that is not entirely true but as you've mentioned before Marina actions like this only serve to boost recruitment to extremist groups.

Sarastro, excellent points. Can alwasy count on you for good rationalised arguements.

Sonne

[Marina]

Being muslim myself, having lived in the Middle East, having friends and family in these regions, its really hard for me to have one iota of sympathy for Israel.
Seeing the destruction of a nation and its people...right now I am borderline between moderate rationalised thinking to saying 'go Hez send another rocket to those zionists !'


Harry, Sticky, Frank S, any mods, help me here, I need some therapy !

[borisimo]

Well it doesn't have to be a NATO force, but it would have to be independent and capable.

Hezbollah are not defending their country, Hezbollah are the problem that is inviting air strikes into civilian areas, don't forget that. They are forcing Israel to bomb built up areas because they are operating there. Hezbollah fired the first rockets and they kidnapped the soldiers.

Whatever happens though, Lebanon needs a proper army that can police it's own borders, if that was already there then we wouldn't be in this situation.

They will just lie low for some years, re-arm and re-group with the help of Iran.

Which is exactly why syria and iran need to be sorted out and Lebanon be able to repel their influence.

And i refuse to believe that all the annoyed lebonese have to go off and join Hezbollah, if they are really that upset then joining their own security services would be far more beneficial, the types of people that go and sign up for hezbollah, al queda etc etc are people that have been badly influenced already via various sources and are therfore beyond the reach of rational behaviour.

[Frank S.]

And i refuse to believe that all the annoyed lebonese have to go off and join Hezbollah, if they are really that upset then joining their own security services would be far more beneficial .

I guess frustrations do lead to simplifications like this, but...

The only people the current action is going to leave behind are those who didn't have the money and/or contacts to leave the area. People of means, people with dual citizenship are gone or leaving.
The rest are getting trapped and if they do survive, chances are they will have lost part or whole of their families and neighborhood.

Annoyed Lebanese? Sounds as though it's an inconvenience and all they gotta do is hunker down, roll over like dogs to show they're no threat, and everything will be fine, once Israel wipes out Hezbollah.
Unfortunately, that's not going to happen.
The UN cannot move if the US doesn't want it to.
Back in the '90s, I believe it was John Major who addressed this criticism to the US despite his friend's (Anthony Lake NSC adviser) request to leave it out of a speech: "[at the UN] the US expects representation without taxation".
We don't pay our fair share, never have, but fully expect to play the game and decide who's in and who's out.
We're now expediting shipment of bunker busting bombs to Israel, so expect more Ka-blooie soon...
What the president showed when he told your prime minister that all the UN has to do is tell Syria to tell Hezbollah to stop this sh*t and it's over, is that he neither knows nor understands the M-E.
So again, cui bono?
Israel if they seize more territory with more water resources (despite claims they don't want to remain), and Hezbollah with some radicalized remnants of Lebanon..?
There are problems which won't be "sorted out" with guns and bombs period.
I don't dispute the legitimacy of Israel taking action, but the wisdom of how they're doing it is debatable.

[harry hackedoff]

Cui Bono?
Good question, mon ami. Israel doesn`t need the territory(again). Factions within their government don`t need a "road map to peace" either. They are the ones "who benefit"
I`ve said elsewhere how I see this conflict and every single day it gets worse. So what if the terror group fires missiles? Is that enough justification to destroy the Pallestinian State or large parts of Lebanon? Is it? I wonder how far we`d have got using that process in Norn Iron.
Every Sovereign Nation has a fundamental right of self defence and that actually includes the Pallestinians. Force must be proportionate to the threat in exactly the same way as with individuals if it is to later stand up in court.
What we are seeing here is outragious. Look at the exchange rates and tell me who actually is the terrorist aggressor.
That the govts of UK and OZ are saying the Jews are our Allies is beyond a joke to me. They certainly are not my allies.
There is only one way out of this that I can see and bombing the shit out of the Pallestinians and the Lebanese isn`t it. The average Pallestinian just wants to live his life the way that you do. They aren`t all suicide bombers ffs. The Israelis need to realise that and start dealing with these people as Human Beings.
If they started treating the Pallestinians as equals, you know what? Maybe Hezbollah and Hamas would thin out and sensible people like Hannan Ashrawi would be seen as the true representatives.
Qui Bono, indeed

Hold on there Marina. Don`t get wound up by the populist view. It`s not the only view, salaam a leckum my friend

[harry hackedoff]

Sneaks, I sympathise with the poor bastards on the receiving end mate. We`ve all had enough haven`t we?

[Tab]

I can remember German Officers being hanged after being tried as war criminals for doing just what Israel is doing now.

[Marina]

If Israel went back to its pre-1967 borders. The Middle East in general wouldn't be in such a mess in 2006. Oh yes and Israel is supposed to be a democracy.

The US government need to re-evaluate itself, how long will it financially and militarily fund Israel and ignore their own domestic problems at home ?

At the moment, anything th US governement says or does in the name of peace in the Middle East, do you think we are going to believe a word ?
I believe pigs can fly !

BTW, when this carnage ends, if it ends, who is going to foot the bill in rebuilding the state of Lebanon ?

Hey up Harry, sort of hangin there, thanks mate. Trying to avoid watching the tv.
Shaba khair mate (means goodnight in persian or the poetic way have a peaceful night)

[Kiwi1988]

I can remember German Officers being hanged after being tried as war criminals for doing just what Israel is doing now.

Yeah but they did enjoy their job, following orders yeah pull the other one.

This is not the same, 6 million people had not been wiped off the face of the earth, and toast and roasted. The Germans didn't see race at the end, everyone was a target.

Israel is just spring cleaning.