Wholley,
I gotta tell you, I'm in agreement again. With one caveat.
I believe France should commit military and financial assets to the securization and reconstruction efforts over there. But... I haven't read the US proposal to the security council, as it was presented in a closed session.
I'm not clear on what it suggests, particularly on the military end: peace-keeping forces and/or counter-terror forces?
In the latter case, that'd pre-suppose France (and the others) would commit Special Operations, maybe Special Forces troops. And to place such assets under American military command (although not unheard of) seems pretty difficult to me.
But again, as usual, I could be wrong. I do think we (France) need to behave as we see ourselves and help now...
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A view on Blair from the US
Wholleywholley wrote:sisyphus,
The Frogs and Squareheads are up to their usualgames though.
F#king politicians
Wholley.
Couldn't agree more about politicians!! Trouble is we, the proletariat, never get the whole story. Why have they objected? What is it the US is proposing?
My knee jerk reaction is that Bush has bitten off more than he can chew. Or, at least, more than will get him re-elected for a second term. Maybe the French/Germans realize this. Who knows? When will we ever know the whole truth? Sorry, daft question - Answer, never!
But it's inevitable that we react to the headlines. Which is maybe what the 'grey suits' want us to do.
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Wholley
- Guest
Pols
Sisyphus,
One of the most technicolor yawn making things I've seen in a while is the President of France and the Prime Minister of Germany embracing.
I can only imagine that they are thinking that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Point One.The US is not the enemy.
Point Two.The French want to get back into Iraq before we find out how complicit they were with the Baa'thist regime.(Just like they were with Argentina in 1982)Point taken?
Point Three.Socialist Germany will do anything to get at the US.
Gerhart Schroeder is so left wing he's almost Ken Livingstone with a Kraut accent.
On a serious note,
I hope Bush DOES get elected to a second term.
Just for the sake of our Military.
If a Democrat is elected their families will be back on food stamps.
One of the most technicolor yawn making things I've seen in a while is the President of France and the Prime Minister of Germany embracing.
I can only imagine that they are thinking that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Point One.The US is not the enemy.
Point Two.The French want to get back into Iraq before we find out how complicit they were with the Baa'thist regime.(Just like they were with Argentina in 1982)Point taken?
Point Three.Socialist Germany will do anything to get at the US.
Gerhart Schroeder is so left wing he's almost Ken Livingstone with a Kraut accent.
On a serious note,
I hope Bush DOES get elected to a second term.
Just for the sake of our Military.
If a Democrat is elected their families will be back on food stamps.
Wholley,
Why should we care if Germany or France want to help? They aren't really an effective force today. We just need to be true to our word and turn the place back to the people there. After all that is what freedom is.
I also hate to admit, Clinton gave us the biggest pay raise ever. Bush has just given the military what they crave, a mission. To be in units that do nothing but turn wrenches on rusty trucks and fight pretend enemies is taxing. It is okay for awhile, but every soldier deep down wants to use his training, to see what those 500 pound bombs really do, to see if the stories about the m-16 on burst really will cut a man in half. The military would have liked Clinton more if he would have given them a real mission, the peace keeping stuff was like a tease, it pissed troops off and commanders who needed combat OER's to get that star.
As for food stamps, most dumbass soldiers I knew on stamps did it to themselves, they got in debt by making foolish financial decisions, never got promoted, had 4-8 kids in some cases. How much money should they get? I got crap pay at e-3, but at E-5 I was making as much as my dad who has worked in electrical construction for 30 years. Most soldiers with financial trouble do it to themselves, if I had made anymore money I'd have been way over paid.
As for Bush getting re-elected, he will, them democrat's are too divided. I actualyy sort of like Kerry, but one leader is the same as the other to me, they all want my freedom. I'd vote for Sharpton if he'd repeal the silly gun laws of 1994, end p/c speech codes, and generally limit federal authority and increase and promote state authority. I'm tired of paying high federal tax and seeing it forked to the turd world, I'd rather that money stay at the state level and go to state and city dept.'s. Our cops need a raise more than anyone, our firemen are worked to death, our schools can't afford paper, and our road construction is just sitting undone and without funds, meawhile we build road's in Rwanda.
Our country has unintentionally gotten caught up in the financial game and now we are all a slave to it, and no matter who is king, the business stays the same generally, on just wants socialized medicine, the other wants to medicare reform, and nothing happens, its just a show, our financers holding the strings call the shots. That is why I don't even get upset about foolish things the leaders do, they have no choice, just like Sgt.'s, limited authority and they take orders like everyone else. Only not from voter's, but their financer's.
Why should we care if Germany or France want to help? They aren't really an effective force today. We just need to be true to our word and turn the place back to the people there. After all that is what freedom is.
I also hate to admit, Clinton gave us the biggest pay raise ever. Bush has just given the military what they crave, a mission. To be in units that do nothing but turn wrenches on rusty trucks and fight pretend enemies is taxing. It is okay for awhile, but every soldier deep down wants to use his training, to see what those 500 pound bombs really do, to see if the stories about the m-16 on burst really will cut a man in half. The military would have liked Clinton more if he would have given them a real mission, the peace keeping stuff was like a tease, it pissed troops off and commanders who needed combat OER's to get that star.
As for food stamps, most dumbass soldiers I knew on stamps did it to themselves, they got in debt by making foolish financial decisions, never got promoted, had 4-8 kids in some cases. How much money should they get? I got crap pay at e-3, but at E-5 I was making as much as my dad who has worked in electrical construction for 30 years. Most soldiers with financial trouble do it to themselves, if I had made anymore money I'd have been way over paid.
As for Bush getting re-elected, he will, them democrat's are too divided. I actualyy sort of like Kerry, but one leader is the same as the other to me, they all want my freedom. I'd vote for Sharpton if he'd repeal the silly gun laws of 1994, end p/c speech codes, and generally limit federal authority and increase and promote state authority. I'm tired of paying high federal tax and seeing it forked to the turd world, I'd rather that money stay at the state level and go to state and city dept.'s. Our cops need a raise more than anyone, our firemen are worked to death, our schools can't afford paper, and our road construction is just sitting undone and without funds, meawhile we build road's in Rwanda.
Our country has unintentionally gotten caught up in the financial game and now we are all a slave to it, and no matter who is king, the business stays the same generally, on just wants socialized medicine, the other wants to medicare reform, and nothing happens, its just a show, our financers holding the strings call the shots. That is why I don't even get upset about foolish things the leaders do, they have no choice, just like Sgt.'s, limited authority and they take orders like everyone else. Only not from voter's, but their financer's.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
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Frank S.
- Guest
Dare I say there's hope as far as politicians?
This is of course speculative, but... Remember how hot a topic "term limits" were just a few years ago? They're on the back burner currently, but certainly not forgotten. When it was heard of again last week, some politico (Republican in this case) opposed it on the grounds that term limits would hurt minorities, particularly women in politics. Uh-huh... Righto.
The current California gubernatorial recall election is no fluke. All those frustrations we share here about politicians are shared by the vast majority of people who want to kick the bums to the curb. Even if that'd mean voting for another actor. We'll see.
Amusingly, Bush seemed pleased with the developments, only saying that he thought Schwarzenegger would make a 'great governor'... Look over your shoulder, George... This is how myopic the morons are: as long as it's the other camp that gets into trouble with the electorate, they rejoice. But they're really all the same and as Lenny Bruce (controversial '60s comic for our UK hosts) said once: "everybody's a$$ is up for grabs, that's what makes America great".
Oh yeah bring back accountability, even if we have to wait ten to fifteen years, it'll be worth it.
Wholley, we were talking about the Euro vs the US dollar in another thread. One thing I didn't bring up is that in addition to being backed by the US gold reserve, the dollar's backed by our huge military machine. Speculating again, I'd submit that this might be a better reason behind France, Germany and Belgium pushing for a strong European military outside the tutelage of NATO, than to simply 'counter-balance' US military power. This would provide the required backing for the Euro.
It's not a matter of opposing the US. The second half of the 20th century was so much better than the first because of strong trans-atlantic ties.
Well I'm off to drink Bushmills while listening to Orbital. Later!
This is of course speculative, but... Remember how hot a topic "term limits" were just a few years ago? They're on the back burner currently, but certainly not forgotten. When it was heard of again last week, some politico (Republican in this case) opposed it on the grounds that term limits would hurt minorities, particularly women in politics. Uh-huh... Righto.
The current California gubernatorial recall election is no fluke. All those frustrations we share here about politicians are shared by the vast majority of people who want to kick the bums to the curb. Even if that'd mean voting for another actor. We'll see.
Amusingly, Bush seemed pleased with the developments, only saying that he thought Schwarzenegger would make a 'great governor'... Look over your shoulder, George... This is how myopic the morons are: as long as it's the other camp that gets into trouble with the electorate, they rejoice. But they're really all the same and as Lenny Bruce (controversial '60s comic for our UK hosts) said once: "everybody's a$$ is up for grabs, that's what makes America great".
Oh yeah bring back accountability, even if we have to wait ten to fifteen years, it'll be worth it.
Wholley, we were talking about the Euro vs the US dollar in another thread. One thing I didn't bring up is that in addition to being backed by the US gold reserve, the dollar's backed by our huge military machine. Speculating again, I'd submit that this might be a better reason behind France, Germany and Belgium pushing for a strong European military outside the tutelage of NATO, than to simply 'counter-balance' US military power. This would provide the required backing for the Euro.
It's not a matter of opposing the US. The second half of the 20th century was so much better than the first because of strong trans-atlantic ties.
Well I'm off to drink Bushmills while listening to Orbital. Later!
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Wholley
- Guest
Whitey,
Good for you.
The stupid restrictive gun laws will sunset next year.
I don't see Bush signing them in to law.Unless Boxer,Feinstien,Arnold,Schumer,Kennedy,Clinton,Lautenberg et al can revive the old" guns kill people"theme.Guns protect people.people kill.
It is simply not going to work this time around.Notice how even Kerry from MA is staying away from Gun control?
So is dear old Hillary.She knows her buddy Gore lost in the Heartland on this issue.Bud,I think we have a similar point of view.
Oh!military forum
Sooooo sorry i should probably say Lee Enfield.303(Bolt Action)
Wholley.
Good for you.
The stupid restrictive gun laws will sunset next year.
I don't see Bush signing them in to law.Unless Boxer,Feinstien,Arnold,Schumer,Kennedy,Clinton,Lautenberg et al can revive the old" guns kill people"theme.Guns protect people.people kill.
It is simply not going to work this time around.Notice how even Kerry from MA is staying away from Gun control?
So is dear old Hillary.She knows her buddy Gore lost in the Heartland on this issue.Bud,I think we have a similar point of view.
Oh!military forum
Sooooo sorry i should probably say Lee Enfield.303(Bolt Action)
Wholley.
Frank,
Thanks for the e-mail, I almost got kicked out of school for showing a few people MLK's declassified FBI report. Isn't that something? Most of it is blacked out, and what isn't shows some interesting back stage games and hidden agenda's.
Wholley,
Yeah, I am an "Extremist" I like the Constitution, I think it is a valid document and the Fed's need to obey it, inside our country anyway. I know we need violent men who don't obey it deployed on our enemies door step, but here at home we need freedom in it's contracted form our forefathers set out for us.
In the last 10 year's I watched the errosion of the Constitution in warp speed, and no one cared because the economy was good, and the Mystic Slick Willy was breaking down doors and disreguarding freedom as the sheeple packed usury dollars in gob's into their portfolio's. I thought that was pretty sad. Main reason I have lost respect for alot of folks. The big shots took their freedom and they knew it was wrong and went along anyway. Gun laws, speech codes, hate crimes ect. passed like illegals through San Diego and no one questioned the rationality. Americans were killed on our own soil not by cops, but by soldiers, and no one cared or saw the danger in that. The two parties need a reality check by voters, a 3rd party should come in and straighten out some things and restore the constitution. The dems and rep's are like rival team's who have forgotten what the game is all about. They forgot it's about do what is good for America not do what is good for the party. The American people irritate me, they scream for all this stupidity and then when it goes into effect they hate it. Like the Iraq war, before it happened every swinging dick I ran into wanted to go waste the rag heads, now that it's been a few months and the Iraqi's aren't lined up for fast food,porn magazines and blue jeans the average joe here is now not supporting the war. I liked Bush even though I disagreed with his war in Iraq, but what did it with me with being a loyal voter to him was when he let old Ashcroft lose with that Patriot act. That guy went Ape shit, he seem's like a nice guy, but that act is anti-American. It sounds like it could nab some baddies, but also turn us into a police state. I totally agreed with action in Afgahnistan, the bombing campaign was sort of idiotic, but I don't beleive from experience wars are won by carpet bombing, it takes men on the ground.
I think we need to build bases on our boarders and have a no mans land zone that our troops patrol, lets face it most Americans can't tell a Juan from a Mohammed coming over the boarder.
As for the French and Germans, I still think at this point we shouldn't even ask them to the party. I think Russia is a good idea because Iraq owed them lot's of money and a few contracts might help them collect some of it, plus we could use the help from some guys who mean business. Iraqi jackasses know they can agttack americans and duck into a crowd and we won't shoot, but old Ivan shure as hell will.
I hope you are right about the gun law, I'd rather take my chances in a gun loving society where I could get popped rather than live in a weaponless utopia. The 2nd ammendment protects the rest.
As far as Empire, we are one like it or not, Blair realizes this and knows there are financial benifits to being pal's with the big dawgs, I think some folks ought to cut the guy some slack, he is just trying to make sure England/U.K. has a financial future, same as we are doing over here, if you gotta blame something blame the IMF. Usury at its best.
Thanks for the e-mail, I almost got kicked out of school for showing a few people MLK's declassified FBI report. Isn't that something? Most of it is blacked out, and what isn't shows some interesting back stage games and hidden agenda's.
Wholley,
Yeah, I am an "Extremist" I like the Constitution, I think it is a valid document and the Fed's need to obey it, inside our country anyway. I know we need violent men who don't obey it deployed on our enemies door step, but here at home we need freedom in it's contracted form our forefathers set out for us.
In the last 10 year's I watched the errosion of the Constitution in warp speed, and no one cared because the economy was good, and the Mystic Slick Willy was breaking down doors and disreguarding freedom as the sheeple packed usury dollars in gob's into their portfolio's. I thought that was pretty sad. Main reason I have lost respect for alot of folks. The big shots took their freedom and they knew it was wrong and went along anyway. Gun laws, speech codes, hate crimes ect. passed like illegals through San Diego and no one questioned the rationality. Americans were killed on our own soil not by cops, but by soldiers, and no one cared or saw the danger in that. The two parties need a reality check by voters, a 3rd party should come in and straighten out some things and restore the constitution. The dems and rep's are like rival team's who have forgotten what the game is all about. They forgot it's about do what is good for America not do what is good for the party. The American people irritate me, they scream for all this stupidity and then when it goes into effect they hate it. Like the Iraq war, before it happened every swinging dick I ran into wanted to go waste the rag heads, now that it's been a few months and the Iraqi's aren't lined up for fast food,porn magazines and blue jeans the average joe here is now not supporting the war. I liked Bush even though I disagreed with his war in Iraq, but what did it with me with being a loyal voter to him was when he let old Ashcroft lose with that Patriot act. That guy went Ape shit, he seem's like a nice guy, but that act is anti-American. It sounds like it could nab some baddies, but also turn us into a police state. I totally agreed with action in Afgahnistan, the bombing campaign was sort of idiotic, but I don't beleive from experience wars are won by carpet bombing, it takes men on the ground.
I think we need to build bases on our boarders and have a no mans land zone that our troops patrol, lets face it most Americans can't tell a Juan from a Mohammed coming over the boarder.
As for the French and Germans, I still think at this point we shouldn't even ask them to the party. I think Russia is a good idea because Iraq owed them lot's of money and a few contracts might help them collect some of it, plus we could use the help from some guys who mean business. Iraqi jackasses know they can agttack americans and duck into a crowd and we won't shoot, but old Ivan shure as hell will.
I hope you are right about the gun law, I'd rather take my chances in a gun loving society where I could get popped rather than live in a weaponless utopia. The 2nd ammendment protects the rest.
As far as Empire, we are one like it or not, Blair realizes this and knows there are financial benifits to being pal's with the big dawgs, I think some folks ought to cut the guy some slack, he is just trying to make sure England/U.K. has a financial future, same as we are doing over here, if you gotta blame something blame the IMF. Usury at its best.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
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Twenty One
- Member
- Posts: 569
- Joined: Fri 02 May, 2003 10:57 am
- Location: Paisley,Renfrewshire
Pardon me for butting in guys. I notice that YOU (yanks) seem to be taking over a bit on here. 
As for TONY BLIAR,if he was as enthusiastic about us British folks as he is about his overseas friends he would be liked,but he is not, because since 1997 he has introduced 60 new taxes into this small rich island unknown to the majority of the electorate.He has a bad habit of spending the British taxpayers hard earned cash STUPIDLY on a war that 99.9% of the country did not want,in order to suck up to Bush's and America's quest to dominate the world and to hell with everyone else!Nothing wrong with the Yanks, just stay over there and do your own thing and keep your noses out of everyone elses affairs.
As for TONY BLIAR,if he was as enthusiastic about us British folks as he is about his overseas friends he would be liked,but he is not, because since 1997 he has introduced 60 new taxes into this small rich island unknown to the majority of the electorate.He has a bad habit of spending the British taxpayers hard earned cash STUPIDLY on a war that 99.9% of the country did not want,in order to suck up to Bush's and America's quest to dominate the world and to hell with everyone else!Nothing wrong with the Yanks, just stay over there and do your own thing and keep your noses out of everyone elses affairs. Dissent Protects Democracy,Gezza Brek!
Re: Pols
wholley wrote: Point One.The US is not the enemy.
Believe it or not neither are France nor Germany. They are western democracies who have a different view than the US. There again, it was Bush who said, "If you're not with us, you're against us." In so doing, maybe he has defined the US to be the enemy of France and Germany.
Point Two.The French want to get back into Iraq before we find out how complicit they were with the Baa'thist regime.(Just like they were with Argentina in 1982)Point taken?
Not really. It is fairly common knowledge that France has/had extensive commercial interests in Iraq. And if the US didn't know about the alleged links to the Ba'ath Party, why not? Has the CIA been asleep all these years?
Point Three.Socialist Germany will do anything to get at the US.
Sorry, but this is only worthy of publication in an English tabloid newspaper: it's not a supportable view in an objective debate.
On a serious note,
I hope Bush DOES get elected to a second term.
Just for the sake of our Military.
Sadly, many people beyond the shores of North America fail to take Bush seriously at all. It's not for non-Americans to decide who should be your President. But I certainly wouldn't vote for him. I can understand, and agree with, the need to support the Military. The unpalatable reality is that a Nation is more than just it's Military.
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Wholley
- Guest
Sisyphus.
You really cannot believe that the French and Germans are our allies can you?The US is going back to the UN again,knowing that whatever we propose will be opposed by the aforementioned.
Your second riposte is quite correct.Clinton effectively put the CIA to sleep in the late Nineties.
As to your third point,maybe the alcohol was taking over,so I'll re-think that as you nicely pointed out.
Wholley.
English Tabloids?Which one?Sun,Mirror,News of theWorld?
You really cannot believe that the French and Germans are our allies can you?The US is going back to the UN again,knowing that whatever we propose will be opposed by the aforementioned.
Your second riposte is quite correct.Clinton effectively put the CIA to sleep in the late Nineties.
As to your third point,maybe the alcohol was taking over,so I'll re-think that as you nicely pointed out.
Wholley.
English Tabloids?Which one?Sun,Mirror,News of theWorld?
Wholley,wholley wrote:You really cannot believe that the French and Germans are our allies can you?The US is going back to the UN again,knowing that whatever we propose will be opposed by the aforementioned.
English Tabloids?Which one?Sun,Mirror,News of theWorld?
Of course they are our allies. Even allies don't have to agree on everything. I think their objection to the US proposal is that they would commit resources but the US would have control of them. If Bush really wants the UN involved, why not invite them in and step back, allowing them to take control?
I can see the argument against, in that the US 'funded' the war but, by the same token, Bush was adamant that he would go it alone even if no-one, including the UK, came in to help. Now that he's found out it's costing $4bn a month, he's obviously realized his error.
Re. the tabloids. All of them. At least that's one thing you don't have to suffer in the US. They really are appalling.
