US DEAD IN IRAQ = 1000

[USARMY_]

If you think any one is safe just see what they did to the Nepalese in the link above on my first post on this thread.

[Tab]

Ex URN Student, A soldier goes where he is instructed, and all those that join should be aware of what they might be asked to do. Most of these young men that have died, did so to defend their country in any way that their government requested. Now you may be one of the chattering classes that think what ever the Americans do must be wrong, but only time will tell if Irqa turns out to be a better place than it was before America AND their Allies took this action. Or do you think that they should pull out now and hand the country over to the Muslim terrorist. Like Northern Ireland and Malaya it will take time and blood to bring order back to this place.

[Redhand]

Ex URN Student, A soldier goes where he is instructed, and all those that join should be aware of what they might be asked to do. Most of these young men that have died, did so to defend their country in any way that their government requested. Now you may be one of the chattering classes that think what ever the Americans do must be wrong, but only time will tell if Irqa turns out to be a better place than it was before America AND their Allies took this action. Or do you think that they should pull out now and hand the country over to the Muslim terrorist. Like Northern Ireland and Malaya it will take time and blood to bring order back to this place.

Funny thing Tab...i wasn't aware that everything was OK in NI.

Malaya was a success though, no doubt about that.

Regarding American policy on the subject,

My angle is that America is fundamentally flawed in an otherwise correct approach to the War on Terrorism. She knows that she is threatened abroad, but the proper diagnosis for this problem is too much for her to swallow.

My father teaches at the online American Military University, he's had a few students now, who, after reading some course material on SS tactics in Southeast Asia wish they could do the same. It would seem they're stuck between a rock and a hard place, they know because of media and liberal pressure they can't outright flatten places. But they also know backing off any would give political victory to the insurgents. So, what to do??

Here is my two cents

1. Pull all troops and US symps out of insurgent areas and cordone the area off and simply wait. Keep them up day and night with flares, indirect fire, whatever. No army on earth has ever defeated a siege by a superior force, NONE! If this means innocents must perish due to starvation, so be it. You may also find, if your lucky, that non combatants may turn on the insurgents.

2. Simply flatten the cities end to end, but this would defeat the entire political purpose of being there wouldn't it?

The present option of patrolling actively hostile areas just isn't working and it's costing lives and political stability.

[dootybooty]

Redhand, suggest you look at the Knights of St John and the Siege of Malta, Stalingrad, Leningrad,Khe San, to name but a few.

[Seven]

Redhand, both of those are not an option, simply because of the media. How can you ever justify letting the civillian population starve?
We should simply train the Iraqi Army and police and in a year or two, give total control to them if they are ready.

[MrMitty]

This is exactly what I mean. The school massacre, as bad as it was, hasnt moved us closer to being under bin Laden's rule, regardless of what Bush says. You, my friend, are letting emotion override logic.

In any case im sure the Chechens are also a bit upset about the 400000 of their people killed by the Russians.

My last words on the subject, I think the War on Terror is 20% fighting terror and 80% expanding US strategic and economic interests.

Maybe so, but then i am looking at it from a parents point of view. I like many just have to rely on the politicians to protect me and my family.

[Redhand]

Look i was just having some fun, OBVIOUSLY im aware that a siege wouldn't work with the modern media.

I couldn't really be bothered to try and figure out such a situation, im signing up as a ground pounder and thats what i'll do. Though, its pretty obvious that SOMETHING else must be done then besides the present course.

You can't convince me that this scenario is new. I think reluctance to take casualties is a big problem.

[dootybooty]

The reluctance to accept civilian casualties is the problem. If we want to fight a war against terrorism we must wage total war, that means inflicting as the cousins put it, collateral damage. With instant communication these days the whole liberal, leftie, pinko ensemble is leaping down your throat if you keep someone locked up for a couple of hours to long, let alone mowing down a few dozen innocents.
Some of us can remember when the press were not breathing down your neck the whole time and you could get on with your job. For us that stopped with Ulster. I firmly believe that the only method that works is to out terrorise the terrorist. However, no western government will condone or allow that treatment. The only nation to try that approach is Israel, and they have cocked up big time in the eyes of the world. The methods they use are a bit to heavy as far as I am concerned. For an example of how to achieve a result look at the Malay Special Branch during the emergency. As for the Russian school massacre, if it had been down to me
I would have rounded up every Mullah, Imam, Ayatollah, in Russia plonked them outside the school and said for every one of us you kill we will kill one of yours. Then I would have offered a one for one exchange of prisoners. If the terrorists went along with that, once they were all in the school I would have blown it to hell. But I am just an ordinary bloke, not a politician worried about being re elected.

[MrMitty]

The reluctance to accept civilian casualties is the problem. If we want to fight a war against terrorism we must wage total war, that means inflicting as the cousins put it, collateral damage. With instant communication these days the whole liberal, leftie, pinko ensemble is leaping down your throat if you keep someone locked up for a couple of hours to long, let alone mowing down a few dozen innocents.
Some of us can remember when the press were not breathing down your neck the whole time and you could get on with your job. For us that stopped with Ulster. I firmly believe that the only method that works is to out terrorise the terrorist. However, no western government will condone or allow that treatment. The only nation to try that approach is Israel, and they have cocked up big time in the eyes of the world. The methods they use are a bit to heavy as far as I am concerned. For an example of how to achieve a result look at the Malay Special Branch during the emergency. As for the Russian school massacre, if it had been down to me
I would have rounded up every Mullah, Imam, Ayatollah, in Russia plonked them outside the school and said for every one of us you kill we will kill one of yours. Then I would have offered a one for one exchange of prisoners. If the terrorists went along with that, once they were all in the school I would have blown it to hell. But I am just an ordinary bloke, not a politician worried about being re elected.

Note to self - never annoy Dootybooty!!

[bigbart]

Flattening entire cities? Starving civvies who want nothing to do with this stupid f***ing jihad? If we did that, we'd be no better than the terrorists. In any war, like dootybooty said, there will be civilian casualties. Too many of them, and the world would start to wonder who exactly is in the wrong.
I'm just a civvy at the moment with little military experience. So I won't pretend that I know the answer to all this. From an englishman's point of view, though... I do wish they would adopt a "no mercy" approach to people caught plotting terrorism or preaching about jihad over here. Execute the f***ers. Seriously. I honestly think our government is being soft on islamic extremists so as to not lose the votes of our huge muslim population. Be nice to the guy with the hook for a hand who is telling everyone to kill the infidel, and all his followers will vote for us again next time round.

[dootybooty]

We are in agreement BB. However, back to the thread. I would like to extend my sympathy to the families of all the Americans fallen in Iraq. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation they were doing their duty. Soldiers don't make policy, they carry it out. In any Post Mortem into this conflict I hope people remember that it was the scumbag politicians that got us into it this clusterf**%. As always it is the guy on the ground that carries the can for their deficiencies.

[Redhand]

Dootybooty,

I more or less agree with your theme,

1. But i would suggest that Israel goes out of its way to minimize civillian casualties. I defy you ( and i say that with respect) to find me proof that Israel slaughters civvies wholesale. Plz don't give me a BBC link to Jenin, because Jenin has already been disproven PLUS the BBC admitted to it, along with others.

(usually its: TV camera shows up, Palestinians say it's their friends and rele's, IDF claims they were terrorists, simple, i take Israels word)

2. I still think the problem is too much technology, not enough willingness to be harsh and/or lose boys. I say that out of no disrespect to people who've lost friends and loved ones. I'm not patronizing either, when im in, i fully expect to put my life on the line.

Im a Christian and somewhat a fatalist, i believe if it's my time to go, its my time to go, nothing i can do about it, short of doing something out of personality. I'm only saying this so people don't think im being a smartass or someone who has no respect for life.

It's funny...when the war in Iraq first kicked off, CBS or someother was interviewing Marines who had just seen action for the first time. One fella went "I didn't sign up for this!". I was just thinking, "well what the hell DID you sign up for!?".

Seems the pervading spirit is too much hot women, nice cars, porno, beer gardens, internet, etc etc...so i guess he had a point. Seems the notion of sacrifice is gone, thats all im saying.

[dootybooty]

We've talked about Israel and the Palestinians before. My concern with the way the Israelis act is based on the fact that as a people that suffered oppression themselves they should understand the resentment generated by their actions. Generaly speaking it is not the Israelis themselves that I have a problem with. It is Zionism which is furthering the troubles. An awful lot of Israelis are oppsed to their governments actions. Large numbers of reservists have refused to serve in the West Bank and Palestinian areas.
Now I must clarify a few things, I am not a great lover of the Arab peoples, I have lived and fought in Arabia, in many ways I despise their culture I admire certain aspects of their life but not many.
However, as I think I stated before, I believe that what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians is not fair.
Just remember one important fact. The UN has passed more resolutions against Israel than it did against Iraq.
If Israel stayed within its own borders and did not keep building settlements on Paletinian land I would not care.
The Zionists believe that they have a God given right to possess the whole
of the "Holy Land". The actions of these people has given rise to most of the problems we face in the middle east.
I accept that you are probably going to argue that Israel is fighting for its surrvival. I strongly advise you to read a book called "The Six Day War" by Jeremy Bowen before you make your mind up on the state of the middle east.
I was in South Arabia when the Six Day war broke and was delighted at what the Israeli forces did. As I have grown older I now have a slightly different perspective. All I would ask you is not to take an entrenched position vis a vis Israel untill you have read a bit more. There is propaganda on both side but Bowens book seems to me to be an honest and unbiased account of the war that led us to the mess we are in today. You will find Sharons words very interesting. If you keep an open mind you can learn a lot. Thats what I try to do.

[Guest]

A war on terrorism can no more be won than the war on drugs or a war on crime. You cant ever eradicate terror, you can only reduce it to some sort of manageable level.

A lot of people are advocating the kill-em-all strategy but IT WONT WORK. The Israelis have been doing it for over thirty years and wheres it got them? Absolutely nowhere!

AQ only exist because they have disillusioned muslim populations in which to hide. I honestly believe that if, for example, the Israel/Palestine conflict was amicably solved, once people in the Mid-East see peace and prosperity develop, noone would support the likes of OBL anymore, they would become irrelevant over time. You can only really tackle terror by winning the hearts and minds of the moderate majority of the muslim world, not starting unnecessary wars.

Who saw that Ayman Alzwahiri tape yesterday? He wasnt looking cocky for nothing you know. The Iraq situation must have been the best Xmas present bin Laden ever got.

[Tab]

Ex-URNU-Student, thanks for letting us know that we lost the war in Malaya, I will see what can be done to alter the history books.