Thoughts Today

[Frank S.]

I gotta keep this short (pinched nerve in my shoulder is now inflamed. Whoopee...), but in a way it ties in for me with the other thread on 9/11.

Are we safer, in some ways yes I think, but this can change from day to day. There is no absolute here. I had from the beginning deep misgivings about this declaration of war on terror. I think it will devolve from there as it cannot be sustained indefinitely.
This is just my opinion: I think Afghanistan at this point looks more like a failure. Iraq may end up a 'failed state': we are relying on Iraqi exiles such as Ahmed Chalabi to form a government there, and to me this spells failure.

I think Chalabi's a con-man, just as Roger Tamraz in the '90s was. Con-men with access to our government. Scary.

I believe the civilian leadership of the Pentagon displayed astounding optimism about the way Iraqis would react to our forces of 'liberation', an optimism I find suspiciously close to religious rapture.

Accuracy in reporting? I see basically none anywhere, the names that keep popping up in my mind over here are Charlotte Beers, Hills & Knowlton and other high-price PR firms selling the public on PNAC's ideas. Seven out of ten Americans still believe that some of the highjackers were Iraqis. No one brings up the question here of why the State Department's 'patterns of global terrorism' was apparently ignored by the White House and Pentagon, a report which put Iran and Pakistan before Iraq in terms of global threats.

We are applying heavy-metal military solutions to intelligence problems because our approach to intelligence has been wrong for so many years and was not addressed. It seems we've all but given up on the idea of developping case officers and agents throughout the world, CIA's directorate of operations appears to be still in shambles and I don't trust all those analyses we sometimes are fed.

This administration as others does not know how to use intelligence and in these times, I see this as a catastrophe.

Of all the losses in the World Trade Center attacks, about a quarter were New York City emergency services. It's them I think about most this week, those people who kept rushing in and up.

[Wholley]

Lew,
Droll,very droll.
Sisyphus,
The situation we find ourselves in right now is an inherited problem left over from the last administration.As Tab mentioned lobbing a few tomahawks in the general direction of usama bin liner just made him feel invicinible.Clinton disabled the CIA's ability to gather intelligence and with Reno as head of Justice the FBI was also largely discredited.I kind of agree with with you that this may become another NI,but on a global scale.Whitey mentioned WW111.He may be right.This is becoming a holy war on both sides,but this time not with Crusaders and Saracens(oh how co-incidental)but with some very potent weaponry which could affect all of us no matter where we live.
Now I'm completely depressed,so I'm going to get Three sheets,and wait for this 'kin hurricane
Wholley.

[Whitey]

This is the reality. I'll be blunt because being p/c leads to 7 out of 10 americans beleiving Iraqi's were involved in 9/11. The truth in my historical opinion is this problem can be traced tothe Balfour agreement. Britian needed help winning WW1 and a group of powerful men offered assistance if after the war the UK would help partition land for the state of (>>>>>) by getting us involved. The UK said okay, after the war it was put on the back burner, then WW2 was forced upon Europe out of fear of communism paranoia and after that war the land was partitioned. According to the UK's own account they soon found they were in a situation that couldn't be satisfied and after both being attacked by (......) and Palastenians they left and the US who also owed favors and had it's economy manipulated stepped in, for years we tried to pull strings behind the scenes, now everyone see's our policies out in the open and because we are supporters and friends of a group of people courtesy of the Balfour, we are bound better or for worse to the situation in the middle east. This is a test now of wills. I beleive the (>>>>>) deserve a homeland, everyone needs a place to hang their national hat, but there has to be a reasonable solution for both sides. I think hitting civilian targets by the palesteniens is foolish and cowardly, and I think hell fire rocket's being fired down the street at hamas leaders is dumb as well due to the fact they often miss their intended mark.
It seems when you pick your friends you become an enemy of their enemy. 9/11 was a message for us to stay out of it. Wrong way to ask I think. Americans respond to violence with violence and Bush looked in the war room and chose the broad sword. Was it the right weapon? Well after 9/11 American's were demanding we respond on the Arabias with photon excited atoms, so I guess the broad sword is more sensible considering the average joe here wants to make OBL and his location glow. As for the Iraqi's, if they give us a chance we can make their lives alot better. We don't want to hurt their religion, ours and theirs are very similar, we've been all over asia and we left Bhudism alone.
One thing is for sure though, if something happens here again, I think the American people will put so much pressure on the issue that our leaders will act in a way that hasn't been seen since 1945.
Einstein hinted that after ww3, ww4 will be fought with sticks and stones. He was pretty smart.

[harry hackedoff]

Agree with you ref the Balfour Declaration, Whitey. Not one of UK`s smartest ideas. Israel is the spoilt child of the World Family, special treatment all the way. Treatment of the Palestinian cause as though it was illegal, is not Natural Justice, as I understand it. I don`t know what the answer is. With the experience of the Jewish Identity, over the last two thousand years and particularly the Final Solution, how can the use of overwhelming force be the answer to the Intifada? There must be a political solution, which both sides can be happy with.

Ref 9 11, many sad thoughts over the anniversary. The people at WTC and the Pentagon on the ground, the people in the air, the relatives listening over and over to answerphone messages from loved ones who knew they were doomed. The firemen making their way up the towers to die. Sadness, but after two years there is allso a sense of pride in the human condition.
The attack showed that terror has reached new levels of sophistication. The long-term detailed planning, the logistic ability and the daring execution were audacious to a degree never before seen. Using similar methods, imagine the results of this type of attack on other, more sensitive targets. The terrorists must be taken out. Any country helping them must be ostracised.

[Sisyphus]

Whitey

Does (.....) and (>>>>) translate as Israelis and/or Jews? Is the state of electronic surveillance in the US/global internet so bad that we (you) can't even use these terms these days?

Of course, Harry's absolutely right when he says a political solution must be found. But how or when this might happen God only knows. There seems no prospect of an early peace for years or, even, decades yet.

It would have been interesting to know what effect Bush could have created if he had been willing to invest an extra $84bn a year on peace efforts and economic aid in the Middle East instead of using it for war and its aftermath.

Just another unanswerable 'If', sadly.

[Tab]

To put it rather crudely, it is far better to go and sh*t in their garden rather than them come over to us and sh*t in ours. When look at the attacks that have taken place on the Twin Towers over the years. I think it is far better that we keep them occupied at home rather than let them pick a time and place to attack us.

[davo141]

Terrorism has been going on for years and will continue to go on for years...before the sad twin towers/pentagon attacks there was the USS cole i belive? same people appently...no major action was taken so they came back for more....if we did nothing again would the next attack be worse in the same increasing scale...dirty bombs? gas attacks? The policy of hitting them first has more chance of working than waiting and waiting on intelligence which could take years, mame them and when they are wounded tie up all threats they pose...little of Al Queda has emerged since the war in Afghanistan, is this the sign of a wounded animal or one planning its revenage in an even more cunning way...maybe those people at the US prison in Cuba may help, one thing is for sure, we must win this war or face its consquences! Eventually, i believe Iraq, the middle east as a whole and Afganistan may be a safe, peaceful land that they deserve, the men and women who have died trying to make it what it should be and the brave people of the 9/11 attacks they are/were fighting for deserve.

But will terror move to other countries? N.Korea? Cuba? Other Rouge states....The capture/killing of either Saddam Or Osama Bin Laden with give these terrorists a huge mora blow, funding problems and mastermind power to carry out anything more on such a scale.

cheers, dave

[Sisyphus]

Terrorism has been going on for years and will continue to go on for years...
The policy of hitting them first has more chance of working than waiting and waiting on intelligence which could take years,

Dave

The difficulty is that we're seeing a new brand of terrorism. The aims of, say, the IRA or the ANC [when it was classed as a terrorist organization - things change] are/were quite clear. But Bin Laden has no stated aim apart from some vague notion of 'bringing down the West'. All he can actually achieve is economic damage and instil fear. So there can be no time when he'll be able to say I/we have won the battle against the 'Great Satan.

The ANC achieved it's aim and is now a 'respectable' organization. Maybe one day the IRA will achieve its aim of a united Ireland. But Bin Laden?

The policy of hitting them first is also problematic. There has never been any link shown between Iraq and terrorism. Libya, Syria, Iran, Algeria - maybe. But not Iraq. There is, or will be, a link - but one created by Bush/Blair. So it seems when we hit 'them' we picked the wrong one, if the war on terrorism is what we're talking about.

[Whitey]

Sisy,
Yeah it's that bad here. Filters you know. The truth is if we stopped supporting the son's of Lithe they would through our banking system reduce our economy to less than that of a 3rd world country and reinvest in another country like the EU who for financial hegemony status would love to step up to #1 in exchange for helping achieve the Zionist dream.

No one can prosper or be #1 without their backing. And 9/11 was a reminder of the cost's of having certian friends. The sad thing is, once we help them achieve their goal they will drop us like a bad habbit.
Either way we are screwed, just putting it off as long as possible.

They took the bank of england, and the king tossed them aside, then cromwell let em back in and in 1916-17 they weaseled into the Wilson administration and here we are today. Roosevelt, Eisenhower(Eisenschumer in reality) Truman was bought off according to JFK by them, and so has every other American leader. And anyone that stands up to them doesn't last long.

Welcome to the NWO, and Global Serfdom.
As for 9/11 I feel sorry for the poor Yankee's that were in the building's that day. I feel worse for the folks on the planes. Terrorist just don't do violence for no reason, they use it to communicate messages, I just want to know what they were trying to say. The worst part of 9/11 is not knowing why. And because they hate freedom isn't it, or Lawrence of Arabia wouldn't still be a hero in Jordan with statues of him.
I think if I assume correctly they were saying "Stay out of our problems" little do they realise they just gave us an excuse to do our financer's bidding full throttle.
As for ww3, yeah this could be the beggining. I saw a geographical study that predicted the US will fight Europe in the next 100 years and the world will jump in.
Greed, maybe that is the building block of all conflict?

[Whitey]

Another question of mine is why the target selection? Why did they attack a civillian target when they usually only hit military/government targets? In reality no one here paid much mind to the Pentegon, Cole or embassies, those as horrible as they were could be rationalized as militery type targets and part of being Good Guys in hostile territory ect. but the towers just didn't make any sense. And if something like this ever happens again I wouldn't be suprised if the "Mikels" incharge turned the red keys.

[Frank S.]

they weaseled into the Wilson administration and here we are today. Roosevelt, Eisenhower(Eisenschumer in reality) Truman was bought off according to JFK by them, and so has every other American leader.

Not the first time the tail's wagging the dog, eh? BTW, Whitey, have you heard about the Saudis moving their F-15s closer to Israel in defiance of US' wishes this week? Are they trying to prevent a raid against Iran or what?

Do you remember maybe a couple news items from February, two plane crashes within one week? The first was an Illyushin (sp?) transporting 302 members of the Iranian Pasdaran en route to South Eastern Iran and the second was a Fokker transporting the Pakistani Air Marshal, two of his deputies and senior staff in North Western Pakistan.
Nothing more was heard about this.

[Tab]

I hope this works, try this site, it is quite an interesting read.

http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/000307.html

The person involved in this web site was a main charcter in the action that led to the story and film Once We Where soldiers. Also he died in the attack on Trade Towers in NY yet barely gets a mention in film or the Trade Towers, could it be that he is British, but the heros must be American.

[Wholley]

Tab,
Now you have got me in tears.
One liner,sorry.
Wholley.

[Whitey]

Tab,
That is pretty hard core. Seems unfair such good men who had "made" it. And used their life to teach others get cut short like that. Bottom line is none of the things on 9/11 make sense or have any closure. The question is still unanswered, why? And the other question is why a civilian office building? A bunch of day traders, secretaries, and minumum wage janitors, and food service workers. Just a bunch of low and midlevel folks trying to make their living, I bet most of them didn't even vote, or even know who OBL and his thugs were.

I don't know why I even started this thread, because I still don't know wtf to think. I think something different everytime I do.

I know I want OBL in a cage with a pig, but by now I've learned I shouldn't hold my breath. As for Arafat, I hope the Izzies send him to Jupiter. I wouldn't doubt if he laughed on 9/11 or even provided assistance. I can't see why the Izzies haven't put him in a cell yet.
Oh well, guess thats why I ain't the president huh?

[Tab]

Whitey, many thanks for your comments, Re Arafat and the Palestinians,
now I can't help but wonder how I would react when people came into my
land and started pushing me off it. The Israelis keep on encroaching into Palestine to set up new villigages, the ground is often taken by force and if the Palestinians stand their ground then settlers claim they are under attack and call in the army who will clear the area and blow up all the Palestinian house around. The settlers will then make a road to their new villiage and then want all the house along the road leveled so that they have greater security which they get done by the Army, no compensation is ever paid. The New Security Wall being built by Israel is on Palestianian ground and has just been confiscated. The fig trees on both sides of the wall are being dug up by the Israeli engineers and are being sold in garden centres for a £1.000 pounds each. Now when you have lost all hope you can understand the Palestinians turning to suicide bombing.
It would appear to me that you have state sponsered terrorism on one hand and Hammas sponsored terrorism on the other, and the sooner some one can bang their heads together the better it will be.