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July 4th Independence Day

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USARMY_
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Post by USARMY_ »

Image

O, thus be it ever when freemen shall stand,
Between their lov'd homes and the war's desolation;
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us as a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust"
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

God Bless the United States of America!!! For with out her no man reading this would be free.
First to Fire!!!

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948)

"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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Post by Guest »

US Army

"God Bless the United States of America!!! For with out her no man reading this would be free."

Does this include those at Guantanamo Bay that are imprisoned without trial? A very bold statement to make, but there again I guess these 'terrorists' haven't as yet, had this opportunity of reading your statement.

I have much admiration for those who are American, that live in America, that defend America and on this day of all days (July 4th) believe in a democratic way of life. Pity that some in America have not seen the democratic way of life in Northern Ireland and up until 9/11 was so insular they only had a vested interest in their own way of life.

I hope that this subject is not going to turn into a slagging match, I have said this on many an occasion, my allegiance is more with the USA than with our 'other cousins in Europe' however don't go and shoot yourselves in the foot!
may18
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Post by may18 »

Midshipman786 wrote:^link doesnt work, all i get is some crappy search engine.
hmm worked for me?

oh well..ill paste it, the guy who did this does lots of @broken timelines@, usually well thought out

_________
A "No American War of Independence" Timeline
The idea here is to develop a possible timeline that follows from deleting the American War of Independence. Relative to a previous attempt it aims at a minimal initial effect on Europe, thus permitting the timeline to have fewer "tunable" parameters.
1750s Seven Years' War ("French and Indian War") begins. Prussia defends itself, brilliantly, against most of Europe. British forces with American assistance eject France from Quebec.
1760s Seven Years' war ends with Russian withdrawal from the anti-Prussian coalition. Friction between Britain and American colonists due to taxes for repayment of Seven Years War. Financial problems in the East India company are resolved by able administrators.
1770s "Boston compromise": Each North American colony, including Upper Canada and Quebec, will receive a single seat in the parliament at Westminster, and be known as a province (though several choose to style themselves as something else: commonwealths, dominions or colonies). Members of parliament are to be elected by the people of the province, but franchise is to be determined by the local constitution: in general this means property-owning classes, and in Quebec it is further restricted to the tiny Anglophone community. Local assemblies recognise the supremacy of Westminster and the right of Westminster to raise revenue. Westminster grants a moratorium on taxation and promises not to tax at a greater rate in America than in any part of Britain ("most favoured region" clause). Prussia, Russia and Austria begin to dismantle Poland. Britain and an alliance of France and Spain fight a war about something or other, which gradually sputters to a stop.
1780s British financial problems gradually recede. The first industrial revolution is beginning in North England and lowland Scotland. A plan to colonise Eastern Australia is rejected. France bankrupts itself funding extravagant gardens, oversized armies, enormous cathedrals and/or Louis' supply of mistresses, and at the end of the decade collapses in revolution.
1790s Various reactionary regimes attempt to suppress the French revolution, which turns on itself and kills most of its creators. France survives, driving its enemies beyond France's natural borders and spreading republicanism in Germany, Italy and the Netherlands. Poland is absorbed by its neighbours. Napoleon Bonaparte becomes head of the French state. British troops conquer large parts of India, and forces in the New World, including Americans, seize various French colonies in the West Indies.
1800s A rampant France, now calling itself an empire, tramples the great powers of Europe underfoot, and tempts Spain into alliance against Britain. The combined Franco-Spanish fleet is defeated at Trafalgar, and Britain seizes everything Spanish it can in the Caribbean.
1810s Napoleonic France is destroyed by a coalition of European powers led by Russia. A bankrupt Spain sells Louisiana to Britain. Against American opposition, Britain uses its fantastically powerful navy to unilaterally ban the slave trade, though the sudden rise in prices makes smuggling profitable. Imperial authorities struggle with mixed success to restrain American colonists from the more rapacious dispossessions of the Indians. In the process of opposing France, Britain has conquered much of the New World colonial empires of France, Spain and the Netherlands. Most of the French possessions and some of the Spanish ones are retained.
1820s The last garrisons in French territory are withdrawn. Suspicion of French intentions in the Pacific prompts a British settlement in New South Wales. The Reform Bill extends the franchise slightly, and gives additional seats to some of the American provinces, of which there are now twenty-four. Hanover, conquered by the French throughout the Napoleonic period but liberated afterward, is given quasi-provincial status. John Quincey Adams, the first American to serve in the British cabinet, slowly builds a consensus against slavery.
1830s Britain bans slavery within the British Isles. Half the European-descended population of the empire now resides in the New World, but economic and political power is still concentrated in England. Small-scale rebellions in Canada and the Deep South are suppressed. British (mainly American) colonists in Texas revolt and gain independence, Britain eventually accepts a protectorate over the area. Attitudes in Britain with respect to colonisation are changing: political theorists, humanitarians and missionaries support the extension of British rule wherever practical. The vagaries of the Hanoverian laws of succession separate the British and Hanoverian monarchies, leaving the legal responsibilities of the Hanoverian members of parliament unclear.
1840s Tension over slavery, the rights of Americans living in Mexican Texas and power-sharing between America and Britain threatens to split the empire. Discontent is no longer isolated to fringe elements, but has infected even the sober and satisfied moneyed classes. Westminster is scene to undignified slanging matches between American members and conservative Britons. Hanover, frustrated by perceived liberal and isolationist tendency in Britain and the dominance of English and the English language in parliament, leaves the empire without any great regret on either side. A special tax is passed to fund the astronomical cost of a transatlantic telegraph line, linking Newfoundland and Scotland. The avowed purpose is to make American participation in the Westminster parliament more responsive, but military and administrative reasons are every bit as pressing. Gold is discovered in California, and the empire, Mexico and Texas start to argue about who owns it. In the home islands anti-catholic legislation is repealed.
1850s In alliance with Texas, Britain defeats Mexico and seizes California. Texas is admitted to the empire as the thirtieth province, and California as a territory. The trouble-plagued trans-Atlantic cable is finally completed, years late and at mind-boggling cost, the innovations needed to produce it will revolutionise long-distance communication. The "Potomac Bridge Negotiations" are called to settle the various outstanding political disputes between entrenched elites in the home islands and resentful Americans. Key members of the Westminster parliament are shipped over to America for the discussions, but the newly laid trans-Atlantic cable is essential to allow the meeting even to take place. British diplomacy succeeds in separating the abolitionist north from the secessionist south. In the "Potomac Compromise", slavery is banned everywhere throughout the empire, but in such a fashion that Southern gentry can retain most of their economic dominance. America receives representation equal to that of Britain, with the understanding that new provinces will receive seats as they are settled and recognised. Francophone Quebecois are enfranchised. France defeats Austria to establish a unified Italian state. A mutiny by Bengali troops in East India company pay is suppressed with great effort, and Britain assumes more direct control over India. Britain intervenes to prevent, and then to punish, a Russian attack on the Ottoman empire. The glorious doomed charge of the British cavalry under James E. Stuart is immortalised in poetry. More practically, Britain annexes all Russia's territories on the American continent. A canal is built through the Suez in Egypt.
1860s Another abortive rebellion in the South. Prosperous and populated Virginia's failure to support the insurrection dooms it to irrelevance. Gold is discovered in Victoria, and Australia finally starts to develop demographically. Britain announces that the Potomac Compromise rules will be extended: in particular, Australian colonies are to be considered provinces as they reach a threshold population, and New South Wales immediately sends representatives to Westminster. Prussia defeats Austria and establishes dominance of most of Germany. Mexico defaults on international loans and an American force occupies key points, establishing a British protectorate in all but name.
1870s Prussia defeats France and establishes a highly militarised unified state over all of Germany except Hanover, still under nominal British protection. A revolt in Cuba and a series of military coups in Spain provide a pretext for Britain to eject Spain from the new world: Cuba becomes a territory of the empire. The Second Reform Bill introduces universal male European suffrage throughout the British isles and all provinces of the empire. British adventurers develop possessions and make fresh annexations in the Pacific, most importantly Pearl Harbour in the Sandwich islands. They are trying to forge the last link in a "world-girdling chain": between California on the one hand and Australasia and the far east on the other. Extensive penetration of inland China also begins, via steam-powered river gunboats. A gold rush in New Zealand accelerates development there, eventually leading to the dispossession of most of the Maori. Thaddeus Stephens is the first American to be prime minister of the British empire.
1880s Parliament agrees that sittings will be held alternately in Westminster and at Potomac Bridge. The Royal capital remains in London. Britain and North America now have approximately the same industrial output, and together they dwarf the rest of the world (though Germany is expanding fast). British and American industry, supplemented on occasion by Indian manpower, are an unbeatable combination anywhere except in Europe itself. California is admitted as two provinces (Alta California and Baja California). Henry Parkes is the first cabinet minister from outside North America and the home islands. Gold is discovered in the Dutch-speaking areas of South Africa, and Anglophone settlers flood in, and are denied political rights by the entrenched land-owners. The "scramble for Africa" begins, with British in the lead. Gold is discovered in the Klondike, and Beringia (once Russian America) is the latest British territory to experience gold-induced migration.
1890s Britain annexes the Dutch-speaking colonies in South Africa, in accordance with the "Texas principle" that the unwilling subjection of Britons to a foreign power will not be tolerated. The action is regarded as intolerable by every colonial power in Europe, though not all of them feel secure enough to say so to a British face. In self-defence they ban or at least restrict the immigration of British citizens to their colonies, sometimes concealing the policy with a legal fiction. Colony-poor great powers such as Germany and Italy have been jealous of the world's "great swathes of pink" for some time. Major non-European powers resent either second-class citizenship within the empire (India) or oppression from the outside (China). British high-handedness has finally created a general opposing coalition of the rest of the civilised world: this despite Britain being by far the most moral and considerate superpower that has ever existed. Suffrage is extended to non-Europeans within provinces: American Negroes, for example, now have the vote in the home islands and all the provinces (as they have had for some time in some, principally northern, provinces) but Negroes living in British colonies in Africa do not.
1900s Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Empress of India, Sovereign of America and Defender of the Rights of the Britons, dies. She leaves descendants married into half the royal families of Europe, but in spite of these links Britain faces an increasingly hostile Europe. In response Britain expands its navy, which, neglected, had shrunk to bare superiority over everyone else in the world put together. In the process it makes most of it obsolete, since new technology is producing ships with capabilities far beyond those of older vessels. Most of the new navy is stationed to protect the home islands from the expanding fleets of France and Germany. The army is still rather small, not particularly respected, and trained for colonial operations. Britain's European enemies formalise their Anglophobia through a new international forum, the European Continental Congress. A canal is dug through Nicaragua, by now utterly in thrall to Britain, linking the Pacific and Atlantic coasts of North America. Suffrage is extended to women.
1910s British diplomacy gradually weakens the Continental Congress, which is too much an alliance of convenience between enemies to hold together well. Russia is effectively detached, and France made a much less enthusiastic enemy: both are coming to fear Germany more than "Perfidious Avalon". America sees Britain as a rather quaint backwater, but this is a gross exaggeration. British industry is not growing very quickly, but it is still substantial and London remains the world's most important financial centre (followed by New York and Richmond). Germany, allied with Austria, defeats an alliance of France and Russia and seizes Poland. Britain stands by neutral, confining itself to the guarantee of Hanover, Belgium and the Netherlands (ironic, considering that the last two governments are generally hostile to Britain) and leaning on the combatants to end the war once it bogs down. The dominant American component of the empire can't see German expansion as any immediate threat. The main feeling in America is relief that Britain has avoided entanglement.


This timeline violates most of Pteranodon's rules for writing plausible alternate histories. Some of those violations, such as including historical politicians, I see as jokes of little import.

If there's a problem here, it's that the timeline is kind of dull. It's around 1900 that the really dramatic non-butterfly effects start to happen, and it's also when things become highly unpredictable. Historically Britain was rather isolated at about this time, and hurriedly did something about it, aligning with France and Russia against Germany. When the first world war came, Britain found itself dragged in by German military dominance and naval expansion.

I assume the first world war happens, in accordance with the guiding principle of this timeline (that anything that happened historically will happen in the alternate timeline unless there's a good reason it shouldn't). The question is: will Britain drag America into the war, or will America keep Britain out? Britain has no particular reason to feel sorry at the humbling of colonial rival France and expansionist Russia, but they are her natural allies if following the "support the second-strongest army in Europe" theory of realpolitik.

The choice of the general term for a citizen component of the empire was difficult.

The historical term "state" was obviously out. States are basically sovereign, and please, no American Civil War flames.
At first I had "county", which I think captures the feel of subordination (counties in England have far less independence than states in the USA or Australia). But it was pointed out to me that "county" was already used as a lower-level division in the American colonies at the time. (e.g. "Fairfax county, Virginia".)
A suggestion was "commonwealth", but that sounds too parochial to me (you're supposed to be sharing wealth within the empire as a whole, not just your local administrative unit) and also a bit Cromwellian.
I didn't want to use "dominion", because it seems to me a fundamentally royal concept. A dominion in the historical British empire/commonwealth is a British colony (in the sense of being mostly occupied by Anglophone Europeans) grown to independence from the British parliament but still recognising the British monarch as head of state. I don't think parliaments have "dominion" over things.
"Province" has the feel of subordination and sounds like the Roman empire, which is a pretty good symbolic model (Romanised Illyrians becoming citizens and emperors and all that).
The other possibility is "colony". That's nice because it doesn't require the invention of a word: the old word is used and adjusts to its new meaning over time. It has a slightly insulting feel to it, to a modern reader, but modern readers would just have to get used to that. The classical allusion here is ancient Greece, and I think England did like to think of itself as a sort of latter-day Athens, but the political implication is wrong. Greek colonies tended to be independent, or coerced into something like the Delian League. Not the symbolism for a brave new world of trans-Atlantic harmony
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Post by Chester »

USARMY_ wrote:[img]For with out her no man reading this would be free.
Although I do agree with this to some extent, I do personally think it's over-exaggarated to the point of just back-slapping and lots of 'Wooooo-yeahhhhhhs' by people who don't really understand what happened during the World Wars.

Then again, perhaps we are just jealous of the second-to-none patriotism they have and how proud they are to be American.

With the amount of unpatriotic left-wing scrotes we have in the country, it's only a matter a time before Britain is a place 'people live in' rather than a country with British people as it's natives.
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Post by spitz »

For with out her no man reading this would be free.
Bloody hell Army! Your not doing yerself any favours are you, what utterly supercilious crap, I mean aren’t the Montagnards still waiting for the Green Berets to go back for them? How many Americans fought to keep the Falklands free? How many communists did you lot kill in Malaya? Hmmm, seems you were late as usual even dealing with the communists.

Maybe you’re referring to WW2? So, how many T34’s were built and manned by Yanks? There were 6 Yanks in the RAF during the Battle of Britain so they must’ve shot down a hell of a lot of Germans, what were they flying F4 Phantoms.

Talk about denigrating the efforts of others, I know the ‘arrogant American’ label attached to Yanks isn’t wholly true (at least in my experience), but your statement is easily demolished, so what the hell were YOU thinking.
You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!
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Post by Guest »

Chester

I support what you say, yes the Americans have the fervour of patriotism, I too once had this towards our country Britain, I no longer have this passion, and it has only come about in recent years. I cannot really put a date/time on it but it seemed to coincide with the tragic death of Princess Diana and the adverse publicity the Royal Family received at that time.

Although I have never been a Labour supporter, I did feel a change of optimism when Blair took over from Major, he seemed dynamic and a fresh approach was needed which he appeared, on the face of it, to give. However, since he has come to power, I feel the country has just gone downhill and he appears hell bent on continuing this decline.

IMO, the only way to claw this back is to have someone who is 'right of centre politics' and the person that comes to mind (apart from the image) is Ann Widdecombe, to me she speaks sense and she is the sort of person who could put the GREAT back into BRITAIN.

I really cannot understand how the American people put up with GWB, but there again I cannot think of an alternative...........!
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Post by may18 »

quote
____________
God Bless the United States of America!!! For with out her no man reading this would be free.
_________________


what an astonishing comment. :o
may18
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Post by may18 »

yeah happy 4th of july ;p
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Post by Jason The Argonaut »

im not personally against the idea but which anthem mate? God save the Queen? republicans would probably complain more. and the others are a bit too old fashioned. verses like "wider still and wider may thy bounds be set" sound a bit too warmongerish and imperial for modern society i think. im all in favour of something else tho...
Well I would say God save the Queen.
OATH
"I, [name], swear by Almighty God that, on becoming a British citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors according to law."

PLEDGE
"I will give my loyalty to the United Kingdom and respect its rights and freedoms. I will uphold its democratic values. I will observe its laws faithfully and fulfil my duties and obligations as a British citizen."
How many legal and illegal immigrants live up to this OATH and PLEDGE :roll: ? How many would join the army up if this country came under attack. The way I feel is that if you are born in Britain you are British citizen you can not become British citizen, if you come from another country.

That's how I feel, that's my view. 8)
I fight for my corner and secondly I leave when the pub closes. - Winston Churchill [img]http://www.world-of-smilies.de/html/images/smilies/teufel/smilie_vampire.gif[/img]
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Post by Sisyphus »

4th July 1776. Oh happy day! George III wasn't mad after all! Can you imagine if he hadn't got rid of the US? (At which time didn't include Texas, California, Utah, (I think) etc... All part of Mexico). We'd be ruling a country which is stripping the planet of it's natural resources, with almost no thought for future generations.

Britain has to admit to some serious mistakes in its history, but overall the contribution to the world was beneficial. I can't see much that the US is contributing which will benefit the world in the long run. (We can live without technology, but not without natural resources)
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Post by may18 »

On immigration

there is no doubt that we have benefitted from immigration in many ways. Im definetely in favour of immigration

But i do think that people making britain their home should treat it as their country not just somewhere to live. When i read of people settling here, then preaching their hatred of our country, and organising men to fight against our soldiers in iraq / making risin etc etc it does make me very annoyed.

here is an article from the observer that shocked me when i read it,
_______
'You have to kill in the name of Allah until you are killed'

An underground film showing the slaughter of Algerian soldiers is being used as a recruitment tool for British Islamic radicals
Afghanistan - Observer special

Jason Burke
Sunday January 27, 2002
The Observer

The trail runs from a wet corner of a west London street to the dusty mountains of eastern Algeria, from a garage on the Thames to the Mediterranean, from a mosque off north London's Seven Sisters Road to Osama bin Laden's training camps in Afghanistan.
In one direction the trail is a conduit for volunteers and money - both heading for Islamist rebels fighting a brutal war against Algeria's government. In the other direction flow political refugees, communiqués boasting of the numbers of 'infidels' murdered each month and, towards the end of last year, a single smuggled video.

Rumours of the video had been circulating for several weeks. There was even talk about it in the bazaars of war-wracked cities in eastern Afghanistan. It was reputed to be of appalling violence - and one of the most effective recruiting tools ever used by a terrorist group. It was also said to be circulating in the UK.

The Observer obtained the video last week from a contact within the British Muslim community. It was worse than anything expected.

According to the badly printed cover, the video, simply entitled 'Algeria', had been prepared by the 'publicity service (audiovisual section) of the Groupe Salafiste pour Prédication et Combat (Salafist Group for Preaching and Fighting or GSPC)' - the most radical of the Islamic terrorist groups who have been fighting the Algerian government for more than 10 years.

The feared GSPC is one of the groups that has refused a recent government amnesty and truce. It is also closely linked to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda organisation and is thought to have been set up by some of his closest lieutenants using the Saudi-born dissident's money.

According to security sources, the first copy of the GSPC video arrived in the UK just a few days before the 11 September attacks. Since then, bootleg copies have been passed around Britain's extremists who have been anxious to play it to potential recruits.

Screenings have been arranged both in private homes and, often after prayers, in mosques. Many showings have been timed so that young people, students and schoolchildren, can attend. Several are alleged to have taken place in Finsbury Park mosque in north London where the radical cleric Abu Hamza often leads prayers.

There are fears that the video could have been used to indoctrinate vulnerable young men who have come to the mosque seeking spiritual guidance following 11 September.

'There are many people at the more radical mosques who come searching for a purpose in life,' said one former MI5 agent who infiltrated Finsbury Park mosque.

'They often know very little about Islam and trust the older men to show them the way. But they are shown the path of violence.'

Both Richard Reid, who was overpowered as he tried to set off explosives in his shoes on a Paris-to-Miami flight last December, and Feroz Abbasi, the 22-year-old former computer student from Croydon who is currently held in Guantánamo Bay prison camp by the Americans, attended Finsbury Park. Abbasi's mother, Juma, last week accused Abu Hamza of brainwashing her son after he had sought spiritual guidance from him 18 months ago.

Last week at the mosque, where worshippers once included Zacarias Moussaoui, the suspected twentieth hijacker, and Djamel Beghal, believed to have been bin Laden's European operations director, The Observer was able to buy videos showing shocking footage from Afghanistan and Bosnia.

One video called The Mirror of the Jihad showed Taliban forces in Afghanistan decapitating Northern Alliance soldiers with knives. It was distributed by an Islamic organisation based in Paddington, London. Another video, shot in Bosnia, advocated a 'jihad to wipe out atheism'. Each cost £10.

Extremists are increasingly using videos as a means to drum up support and publicise their cause. Last year an al-Qaeda video prepared by Osama bin Laden's group in Afghanistan showing militants training cut with pictures of Israeli soldiers firing on rioting teenagers in Gaza and the West Bank was circulated between radicals worshipping at the Finsbury Park mosque. In the video, bin Laden referred to 'spectacular events to come'.

But none of the videos was as shocking - and as potentially dangerous - as that obtained by The Observer .

The GSPC video starts with a flickering screen of Arabic script: an injunction to 'Fight them until the sentence of God is carried out on Earth.'

Then, with a soundtrack of chanted verses from the Koran, more commands scroll across the screen. 'You have to kill in the name of Allah until you are killed,' viewers are told. 'Then you will win your place forever in Paradise. The whole Islamic world should rise up to fight all the sick unbelievers. The flag of Jihad will be forever held high.'

The commentary continues: 'Our enemies are fighting in the name of Satan. You are fighting in the name of God.'

Then clear, bright images take the place of the script. From the bushes beside a remote mountain road, guerrillas watch the approach of a government convoy. There is a huge explosion as the trucks hit a bomb, and prolonged firing.

When the militants get to the scene of the blast they find carnage. There are corpses strewn across the ground. One hangs over the tailgate; where once there was a conscript's head there is a mess of bloody matter. Another lies on the ground with his brains, on which the camera lingers, spread around his shattered skull. A fighter nonchalantly fires bullets into a corpse.

Then there is excited shouting as the militants notice that one soldier is still alive. 'He is moving, he is moving,' calls out a fighter. A militant calmly bends down and runs a knife across the wounded conscript's throat. The images of the blood pumping from his severed carotid artery is shown five times during the video. The throats of the dead on the ground are then cut too.

Much of the video is less gruesome. A GSPC leader is shown planning an attack and explaining his tactics to his troops. His men are shown marching through the dusty scrubland of the Algerian hills. Others are shown baking bread, making clothes or dividing weapons and ammunitions seized from the dead government troops. They are show conducting a bizarre ritual: lining up to be blessed by a comrade dressed in black and representing the 'angel of death'.

But soon the video reverts to violence. Another attack is shown: an ambush in which 12 government conscripts - ordinary young men doing their national service - are killed and eight injured. The dogtags and identity papers of the dead are held up to the camera.

'God loves people who kill in his name,' the commentary says. 'The enemies of Islam are scared. The Jews and the Christians know that they have lost [the war] and want to stop us spreading the truth.'

Algerian security officers learned about the tape soon after it surfaced in the UK in September. However, although the Algerian ambassador made a formal complaint to the Foreign Office, MI5 and the police are not believed to have seized any copies of the tape or arrested any of those involved in its distribution - despite their identities being widely known.

'We would clearly like to see such a powerful fundraising and recruiting tool taken out of circulation as soon as possible,' said one Algerian security source. It is thought that the same tape has been copied and distributed in France - where there is a large Algerian community, elsewhere in Europe and throughout the Middle East.

Algerian security services have been liasing closely with their British counterparts. They told The Observer that the GSPC video has been smuggled in and distributed by a group of Islamic activists based in west and south London who have been living in the UK for several years.

The Algerian sources also revealed that there are more than 200 individuals in the UK who are linked to terrorist activities in Algeria alone. Some are merely sympathisers or political activists, but the list includes dozens of men implicated in the murders of policemen, soldiers, government officials and innocent civilians.

Many have followed the typical path of Islamic radicals: spending years in Afghanistan during the war against the Soviets before returning to their home countries to lead extremist Muslim movements. They come to Britain to flee the resultant government crackdowns.

British police are keen to interview Jordanian-born Abu Qatada, a senior cleric at the Rossmore Road mosque near Baker Street in London. Qatada was top of a list of suspects handed to the Home Secretary by the intelligence services before Christmas to be detained under new internment legislation.

According to one eyewitness, com muniqués from the GSPC and other groups acclaiming the deaths of government troops in militant operations in Algeria were, at least until recently, frequently posted on the noticeboard at the Rossmore Road mosque.

British police, who have raided Qatada's West Acton home, are not the only security agency hoping to trace the cleric. The Americans have named him as a terrorist suspect and Jordanian police have alleged his involvement in an abortive attempt to blow up hotels and other tourist sites on Millennium eve. They claim the plot was masterminded by bin Laden.

The disclosure that the new Algerian tape, which is illegal in the UK, was circulated with such ease will increase concern about Britain's seeming inability to round up terror suspects here.

Last week, investigators in Spain said they had discovered that two suspected al-Qaeda members arrested in Barcelona were in close contact with other members of the group in Britain.

Court documents show that Najib Chaib, a Spaniard of Moroccan origin who was arrested eight days ago in Barcelona, made several visits to London where he met Qatada, who was described by Spanish judge Baltazar Garzón as 'the spiritual leader of Mujahideen across Europe'. Qatada, 42, denies all the charges against him. His lawyer says he is the victim of a 'witch hunt'.

Arab veterans of the Afghan war in London say that, after being granted asylum in the UK in 1993, Qatada became a magnet for leading dissidents on the run from the Middle East and Pakistan. Fighters from conflicts in Afghanistan, Algeria, Egypt and Palestine flocked to his Islamic centre in White City. In Hamburg, videos of Qatada's lectures were found in the flat used by Mohamed Atta, who led the terrorist attacks on America. Other Islamic tracts written by Qatada were found by The Observer among the effects of fleeing al-Qaeda figures in Pakistan.

On Friday at Finsbury Park mosque hundreds of worshippers from scores of countries came to pray. In the lobby two vendors sold militant literature and videos with titles like 'Jihad in Afghanistan' and 'Terror in Chechnya'. Cassettes of Islamic militant scholar Ahmed Deedat bore titles like 'Why Islam is the dominant religion' and 'The War Against Rushdie' and there were several hundred cassettes of speeches given by Abu Hamza on sale for £1.50 each.

Hamza, who lost one eye and a hand in a mine explosion in Afghanistan, arrived a little after lunchtime, ready to deliver his Friday sermon - the khutbah. 'We are under constant surveillance here,' he told his supporters. 'But it is always the way with Islam - we have to fight for what we believe in. Now, more than ever, we have to change people's minds. We have to tell them the evils of democracy, capitalism and communism
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Post by spitz »

The way I feel is that if you are born in Britain you are British citizen you can not become British citizen, if you come from another country.
I think you can become a citizen of another country, but it takes time perhaps generations. Anybody who shows-up in another country signs the oath and pledges allegiance saying they are now fully British, Kiwi, Aussie or Yank are liars or as dumb as a bag of rocks. The truth is you can’t make 20 or 30 years living in another country disappear, you can take the man out of (Country), but you can’t take the (Country) out of the man holds true no matter where your from.

There should be a duty and responsibility to prove allegiance, living in little Hindustans or Islamic enclaves in western cities suggests that some immigrants do not want to assimilate into the prevailing culture.
You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!
Jason The Argonaut
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Post by Jason The Argonaut »

I think you can become a citizen of another country, but it takes time perhaps generations.
I agree with that, if your family has been here for generations and all you know is British way of life than for sure you are a British citizen. But people as you said that just turn up on our shores and say they are now British is false and wrong.
I fight for my corner and secondly I leave when the pub closes. - Winston Churchill [img]http://www.world-of-smilies.de/html/images/smilies/teufel/smilie_vampire.gif[/img]
Jason The Argonaut
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Post by Jason The Argonaut »

:lol:
Last edited by Jason The Argonaut on Fri 04 Jul, 2003 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I fight for my corner and secondly I leave when the pub closes. - Winston Churchill [img]http://www.world-of-smilies.de/html/images/smilies/teufel/smilie_vampire.gif[/img]
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