The fact is, despite blair doing his level best to tax us all to death, our economy is far healthier than euroland. Berlin has 19% unemployment for instance!. Their economies are stagnant, and hard socialiasm and beurocracy are killing them.
Yet still, b.liar thinks we need that
id better shut up, i get quite angry that we really dont want it (67% of voters would vote against signing). Yet b.liar doesnt care what public want
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Looks like tone has troubles ahead!!
Personally I dont think he's given a toss about what the British voters want since he got in.. More fool those who voted him back in...
I didnt particularly think IDS and his gang could do a better job at the time of the last election, I just hoped they might find they could if they did get voted back in. And I also voted for them cos I didnt want the cult to get back in.
Given it away a bit there havent I!
I didnt particularly think IDS and his gang could do a better job at the time of the last election, I just hoped they might find they could if they did get voted back in. And I also voted for them cos I didnt want the cult to get back in.
Given it away a bit there havent I!Why? Because I can!
War crime threat to Blair Jun 1 2003
The mother of a North soldier who died in the Gulf has said that Tony Blair should be prosecuted as a war criminal if no weapons of mass destruction are found in Iraq.
Ann Nichol lost her Royal Marine son John Cecil, 36, in the Iraq war when the Sea Knight helicopter he was travelling in crashed in Kuwait in the first days of the conflict.
Now she has reacted angrily to the admission by US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that weapons of mass destruction - WMD - may never be found in Iraq. Before the war Mr Blair and President Bush justified the toppling of Saddam by claiming he had biological and chemical weapons.
Ann said: "If this turns out to be a lie then Tony Blair should resign. He should also be prosecuted under international law as a war criminal.
"If they don't find any weapons of mass destruction then this war has been based on a pack of lies and they have put all of our sons and daughters lives on the line for a lie."
With no physical evidence of WMDs found in Iraq so far, pressure is mounting on Mr Blair.
Two trucks fitted with laboratory equipment have been found, but experts found no trace of chemical or biological weapons in them.
And captured Iraqi scientists who worked on the WMD programme insist that all such weapons were destroyed in the 1990s.
Mr Blair was left red-faced during an official visit to the former war zone last week when Mr Rumsfeld suggested that the Iraqis might have destroyed their nuclear and chemical weapons before the start of the war.
Then US Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz sparked further outrage by stating that "bureaucratic reasons" were behind the decision to make WMD the main justification for going to war.
The Prime Minister last night said he still believed that weapons of mass destruction would be found in Iraq.
But Ann, 58, of Gateshead, said: "We didn't fight this war for just reasons as there wasn't any threat to the UK from Saddam Hussein.
"Its important that they find these weapons for all those families that have lost someone.
"However, I don't think that they will ever find them."
Her son John, who was born in and brought up in Sandyford, Newcastle, was a colour sergeant in the Royal Marines.
He served in the first Gulf War and had been in uniform since his was 17.
He was among a group of eight Marines who were killed in the helicopter crash.
John was separated from his wife Wendy, the mother of his daughter Paige.
He also had two stepchildren, Nicky and Jodie, from his marriage.
A Downing Street spokeswoman said: "The Prime Minister has no doubt that weapons of mass destruction will be found. But we know it will take time to find them.
"The information in the dossier about weapons of mass destruction was drawn from the Joint Intelligence Committee and accepted by them.
"There are 12 years of UN resolutions about these weapons so we know that they were there."
And Welsh Secretary Peter Hain insisted yesterday that the evidence of Saddam's WMD seen by Cabinet ministers was "absolutely convincing and conclusive".
New Iraq team to step up search for WMDs
A new team of 1400 experts is to start searching for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq amid claims that the coalition exaggerated the threat that Saddam Hussein posed to the world.
The Iraq Survey Group will be led by Major General Keith Dayton of the US Defence Intelligence Agency. He said its arrival would will bring about a "significant expansion" of the hunt for biological and chemical weapons.
The investigators, from Britain, the US and Australia, will shift the focus of the search away from areas identified as suspicious before the war.
Instead it will look in places where new documents and interviews with Iraqis suggest that weapons of mass destruction could be hidden.
The new policy has been brought in amid growing unease about the failure to find illegal weapons in Iraq.
Before the war, the Bush administration cited the threat from weapons of mass destruction as the main reason for toppling Saddam's regime.
General Dayton said he was reasonably confident that his team would find evidence of an illegal weapons programme.
"This is not necessarily going to be quick and easy, but it's going to be very thorough," he said. "There is a lot of information out there that hasn't been gathered yet."
The Iraq Survey Group will include 200 to 300 searchers who will travel around Iraq and hundreds of experts to interrogate Iraqis.
Another 250 people will analyse documents and computer files at a regional base in Qatar while analysts put the pieces together and figure out what they mean.
The group, including military and civilian experts, will begin taking over the weapons hunt no later than June 7, with a two-week transition period.
Ann Nichol lost her Royal Marine son John Cecil, 36, in the Iraq war when the Sea Knight helicopter he was travelling in crashed in Kuwait in the first days of the conflict.
Now she has reacted angrily to the admission by US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that weapons of mass destruction - WMD - may never be found in Iraq. Before the war Mr Blair and President Bush justified the toppling of Saddam by claiming he had biological and chemical weapons.
Ann said: "If this turns out to be a lie then Tony Blair should resign. He should also be prosecuted under international law as a war criminal.
"If they don't find any weapons of mass destruction then this war has been based on a pack of lies and they have put all of our sons and daughters lives on the line for a lie."
With no physical evidence of WMDs found in Iraq so far, pressure is mounting on Mr Blair.
Two trucks fitted with laboratory equipment have been found, but experts found no trace of chemical or biological weapons in them.
And captured Iraqi scientists who worked on the WMD programme insist that all such weapons were destroyed in the 1990s.
Mr Blair was left red-faced during an official visit to the former war zone last week when Mr Rumsfeld suggested that the Iraqis might have destroyed their nuclear and chemical weapons before the start of the war.
Then US Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz sparked further outrage by stating that "bureaucratic reasons" were behind the decision to make WMD the main justification for going to war.
The Prime Minister last night said he still believed that weapons of mass destruction would be found in Iraq.
But Ann, 58, of Gateshead, said: "We didn't fight this war for just reasons as there wasn't any threat to the UK from Saddam Hussein.
"Its important that they find these weapons for all those families that have lost someone.
"However, I don't think that they will ever find them."
Her son John, who was born in and brought up in Sandyford, Newcastle, was a colour sergeant in the Royal Marines.
He served in the first Gulf War and had been in uniform since his was 17.
He was among a group of eight Marines who were killed in the helicopter crash.
John was separated from his wife Wendy, the mother of his daughter Paige.
He also had two stepchildren, Nicky and Jodie, from his marriage.
A Downing Street spokeswoman said: "The Prime Minister has no doubt that weapons of mass destruction will be found. But we know it will take time to find them.
"The information in the dossier about weapons of mass destruction was drawn from the Joint Intelligence Committee and accepted by them.
"There are 12 years of UN resolutions about these weapons so we know that they were there."
And Welsh Secretary Peter Hain insisted yesterday that the evidence of Saddam's WMD seen by Cabinet ministers was "absolutely convincing and conclusive".
New Iraq team to step up search for WMDs
A new team of 1400 experts is to start searching for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq amid claims that the coalition exaggerated the threat that Saddam Hussein posed to the world.
The Iraq Survey Group will be led by Major General Keith Dayton of the US Defence Intelligence Agency. He said its arrival would will bring about a "significant expansion" of the hunt for biological and chemical weapons.
The investigators, from Britain, the US and Australia, will shift the focus of the search away from areas identified as suspicious before the war.
Instead it will look in places where new documents and interviews with Iraqis suggest that weapons of mass destruction could be hidden.
The new policy has been brought in amid growing unease about the failure to find illegal weapons in Iraq.
Before the war, the Bush administration cited the threat from weapons of mass destruction as the main reason for toppling Saddam's regime.
General Dayton said he was reasonably confident that his team would find evidence of an illegal weapons programme.
"This is not necessarily going to be quick and easy, but it's going to be very thorough," he said. "There is a lot of information out there that hasn't been gathered yet."
The Iraq Survey Group will include 200 to 300 searchers who will travel around Iraq and hundreds of experts to interrogate Iraqis.
Another 250 people will analyse documents and computer files at a regional base in Qatar while analysts put the pieces together and figure out what they mean.
The group, including military and civilian experts, will begin taking over the weapons hunt no later than June 7, with a two-week transition period.
-
Guest
- Guest
What a mess:-
If IDS and his lot didn't throw their votes behind Blair pre GW2, he would have been out on his ear by now. He went against the majority of members of the UN vote, despite the Attorney General saying the war was 'legal'. Our 'Allies' France and Germany, you know those other members of that EC that call the tune whilst we pay the piper, were poles apart from us and the underlying ill feeling must still be there.
Yes I agree our economy is stronger at the moment than others and I will give Brown credit for that, but into the equation must come the weaker Euro and the rebuilding of Germany post Cold War making Germany weaker.
Heath was the main culprit in taking us in to the EC, and I voted against entry. Does anyone know what our input ££££ wise is into the EC per annum and what our ££££ is back in grant aid, I would like to know.
The whole country (economy excepted) , the EU the UN is in a complete shambles.
If IDS and his lot didn't throw their votes behind Blair pre GW2, he would have been out on his ear by now. He went against the majority of members of the UN vote, despite the Attorney General saying the war was 'legal'. Our 'Allies' France and Germany, you know those other members of that EC that call the tune whilst we pay the piper, were poles apart from us and the underlying ill feeling must still be there.
Yes I agree our economy is stronger at the moment than others and I will give Brown credit for that, but into the equation must come the weaker Euro and the rebuilding of Germany post Cold War making Germany weaker.
Heath was the main culprit in taking us in to the EC, and I voted against entry. Does anyone know what our input ££££ wise is into the EC per annum and what our ££££ is back in grant aid, I would like to know.
The whole country (economy excepted) , the EU the UN is in a complete shambles.
Im not sure of exact figuresSpannerman wrote: Does anyone know what our input ££££ wise is into the EC per annum and what our ££££ is back in grant aid, I would like to know.
but the uk is the second highest NETT contributor behind germany
france puts in a lot, but takes out as much for its farmers
main recipients: spain (exactly the amount we put in), greece etc
Britain contributes £20bn per year to the E.U and gets about £9bn per year in E.U. grants, so the net contribution is £11bn per year or £30m per day if you prefer, or two new aircraft carriers plus change if the E.U. gets nothing - that’s two new ones every year.
Of course about £6bn per year is nicked or embezzled from the E.U., so that leaves £5bn. But that’s plenty to upgrade a East European farmers donkey to a 4WD Merc’s with a plow attachment.
Now I'm no accountant but something aint right here. :crazyeyes:
Of course about £6bn per year is nicked or embezzled from the E.U., so that leaves £5bn. But that’s plenty to upgrade a East European farmers donkey to a 4WD Merc’s with a plow attachment.
Now I'm no accountant but something aint right here. :crazyeyes:
You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!
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voodoo sprout
- Member
- Posts: 1224
- Joined: Sun 01 Dec, 2002 5:13 pm
- Location: London, UK
- Contact:
Personally I think Blair's just manipulating the system because he knows he's finished. It seems he has a master plan for Britain, with greater integration with Europe, a bit more sway with the Americans, and generally strengthening our political position (an idea I agree with, if not his actual methods). However, the ways in which he wants to achieve this are hugely unpopular, as with Iraq, the new EU constitution and the Euro for instance. But that doesn't matter, as he is now implementing all of these by any means necessary to get as much of his plan accomplished before his time is up. It doesn't matter how angry people are with his undemocractic and manipulative methods, as the worst they can do is vote him out which they're going to do anyway.
My personal opinion is largely in support of the Labour policices, I agreed with Iraq even if no WMD are found, I'm in support of the Euro, and after a few modifications I would support the EU constitution. However, the overwhelming public opinion is against these, so no matter what I or Blair thinks, the primary consideration should be for a democratic decision. As people are largely against further EU integration, it should not go ahead even if it is for the worse.
My personal opinion is largely in support of the Labour policices, I agreed with Iraq even if no WMD are found, I'm in support of the Euro, and after a few modifications I would support the EU constitution. However, the overwhelming public opinion is against these, so no matter what I or Blair thinks, the primary consideration should be for a democratic decision. As people are largely against further EU integration, it should not go ahead even if it is for the worse.
Fluffy bunnies - Grrrrr!
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Artist
- Guest
I see The French have gone on strike yet again. This time over pensions.
The only time Toe Knee B'liar caved in to public oppinion was over the cost of petrol and even then he clawed it back by other means.
Ifen you chopped his hands off he'd have a real problem talking. (God I hate seeing the driveling little sh*t standing on his little platform being "nice and cute"). As for the bride of Dracula less said, want to buy a flat in Bristol Cherrie?
As a kid I lived in Germany, then it was the richest European nation by far. Now because of the east west joining it's up Sh*t Creek. Do we really want to tie our country to these ailing nations? As said previously most of the dosh we give to the EU goes on Old fashioned Farming Methods. If people realised just how much of there taxes go towards helping the French/Spanish and other countries farmers and fishermen retain there old ways this country would have rejected outright even thinking about joining the EU.
Let's get out before we sink into the mire of europe. The Norwegians had the right idea, stay out and trade with everybody. They arn't doing to bad are they?
Aye Artist
The only time Toe Knee B'liar caved in to public oppinion was over the cost of petrol and even then he clawed it back by other means.
Ifen you chopped his hands off he'd have a real problem talking. (God I hate seeing the driveling little sh*t standing on his little platform being "nice and cute"). As for the bride of Dracula less said, want to buy a flat in Bristol Cherrie?
As a kid I lived in Germany, then it was the richest European nation by far. Now because of the east west joining it's up Sh*t Creek. Do we really want to tie our country to these ailing nations? As said previously most of the dosh we give to the EU goes on Old fashioned Farming Methods. If people realised just how much of there taxes go towards helping the French/Spanish and other countries farmers and fishermen retain there old ways this country would have rejected outright even thinking about joining the EU.
Let's get out before we sink into the mire of europe. The Norwegians had the right idea, stay out and trade with everybody. They arn't doing to bad are they?
Aye Artist
just a FYI
in the last 5 years of blair, taxation has gone up 60% on average.
______
How dare Tony Blair call us unpatriotic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOW dare he? How bloody dare he? It was the most despicable speech ever made by a serving British Prime Minister.
Blair got on his hind legs in Poland and trashed everyone who has the audacity to believe that Britain should be an independent, sovereign nation.
Opposition to surrendering what is left of our right to self-government, he declared, is not patriotic.
Come again, son.
Not patriotic?
We’ve grown accustomed to his lies, his evasion, his distortion of the truth.
But this one took the Jaffa Cake.
It wasn’t spin, it wasn’t just another way of selling a policy.
It was a monstrous slander on the people he is paid to represent.
Blair crossed the line. He has forfeited the right to lead our country.
How does sticking up for the right to defend our borders, pass our own laws and run our own economy make us unpatriotic?
That is the very essence of patriotism.
Presumably, in 1939 Blair would have thought the patriotic thing to do would be to hand the keys over to Hitler.
Believe it or not, I have always tried to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Since 9/11 I’ve backed him all the way in standing with the USA in the war on terror.
So have lots of other good people who in the normal course of events are not natural Blairites.
But his remarks in Warsaw put him beyond the pale.
What kind of Prime Minister goes abroad to deliver an ocean-going bucketload to his own people?
How can he urge the Poles to vote for the European constitution while ruthlessly denying the British a referendum?
More than half of us, according to the latest polls, want to get out of Europe altogether rather than cede any more power to Brussels.
Are we all “unpatriotic”?
Quite the reverse. The British people are just waking up to the nightmare of the disastrous entanglement in Europe begun by the disgraceful Grocer Heath.
What is it with Blair?
He hates this country and most of us who live here. He is hell-bent on destroying 1,000 years of history.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blair is ashamed of his own people ... which might explain why he thinks it's such a good idea to dismantle our borders and import a whole new people
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But why?
Was it something that happened to him at public school?
Was he bullied, roasted — or worse?
Goodness knows. I have been wrestling with the question of what makes Blair tick for years.
Greater minds than mine can’t work it out, either.
The simple solution would be to put it down to the madness which engulfs most Prime Ministers after a few years.
The WW set the controls for the heart of the sun some time ago. Maybe Blair’s caught up with her at last.
But this has been his endgame all along. I simply don’t understand why anyone goes into politics to destroy their own country and hand it over to foreigners.
I first floated the President of Europe theory a while back.
But surely he must realise that he’ll get kippered by the Franco-German axis. The French even turned off the air conditioning yesterday to make Blair look sweaty and shifty at his press conference.
These are not people you can do business with.
And while we’re on the subject, what was Blair doing giving a Press conference at the very time the congregation was turning up at the Abbey to celebrate 50 years of the coronation?
Why wasn’t Blair in London at the service? It was only a short plane ride away. I’m sure no one in Evian would have minded.
Why was he sucking up to Jacques Chirac instead of paying proper respect to Her Maj?
He may not like the idea of royalty, but tens of millions do. And his job is to represent those people.
His rank bad manners towards the royals are in danger of turning even me into a monarchist.
Certainly, given the option, most British people would rather live in a free, benign kingdom nominally ruled by a kindly old granny than in a federal susperstate run by foreigners, with their tidy minds, armed with their railway timetables and oppressive “human rights” laws.
That makes them “unpatriotic” in the Orwellian Mickey Mouse world which Blair seems to live in.
(Probably one too many metaphors, but you get the drift.)
Blair is ashamed of his own people. We have let him down. Which might explain why he thinks it’s such a good idea to dismantle our borders and import a whole new people.
It is Blair who is out of step, Blair who is unpatriotic.
I repeat, how bloody dare he?
______________
in the last 5 years of blair, taxation has gone up 60% on average.
______
How dare Tony Blair call us unpatriotic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOW dare he? How bloody dare he? It was the most despicable speech ever made by a serving British Prime Minister.
Blair got on his hind legs in Poland and trashed everyone who has the audacity to believe that Britain should be an independent, sovereign nation.
Opposition to surrendering what is left of our right to self-government, he declared, is not patriotic.
Come again, son.
Not patriotic?
We’ve grown accustomed to his lies, his evasion, his distortion of the truth.
But this one took the Jaffa Cake.
It wasn’t spin, it wasn’t just another way of selling a policy.
It was a monstrous slander on the people he is paid to represent.
Blair crossed the line. He has forfeited the right to lead our country.
How does sticking up for the right to defend our borders, pass our own laws and run our own economy make us unpatriotic?
That is the very essence of patriotism.
Presumably, in 1939 Blair would have thought the patriotic thing to do would be to hand the keys over to Hitler.
Believe it or not, I have always tried to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Since 9/11 I’ve backed him all the way in standing with the USA in the war on terror.
So have lots of other good people who in the normal course of events are not natural Blairites.
But his remarks in Warsaw put him beyond the pale.
What kind of Prime Minister goes abroad to deliver an ocean-going bucketload to his own people?
How can he urge the Poles to vote for the European constitution while ruthlessly denying the British a referendum?
More than half of us, according to the latest polls, want to get out of Europe altogether rather than cede any more power to Brussels.
Are we all “unpatriotic”?
Quite the reverse. The British people are just waking up to the nightmare of the disastrous entanglement in Europe begun by the disgraceful Grocer Heath.
What is it with Blair?
He hates this country and most of us who live here. He is hell-bent on destroying 1,000 years of history.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blair is ashamed of his own people ... which might explain why he thinks it's such a good idea to dismantle our borders and import a whole new people
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But why?
Was it something that happened to him at public school?
Was he bullied, roasted — or worse?
Goodness knows. I have been wrestling with the question of what makes Blair tick for years.
Greater minds than mine can’t work it out, either.
The simple solution would be to put it down to the madness which engulfs most Prime Ministers after a few years.
The WW set the controls for the heart of the sun some time ago. Maybe Blair’s caught up with her at last.
But this has been his endgame all along. I simply don’t understand why anyone goes into politics to destroy their own country and hand it over to foreigners.
I first floated the President of Europe theory a while back.
But surely he must realise that he’ll get kippered by the Franco-German axis. The French even turned off the air conditioning yesterday to make Blair look sweaty and shifty at his press conference.
These are not people you can do business with.
And while we’re on the subject, what was Blair doing giving a Press conference at the very time the congregation was turning up at the Abbey to celebrate 50 years of the coronation?
Why wasn’t Blair in London at the service? It was only a short plane ride away. I’m sure no one in Evian would have minded.
Why was he sucking up to Jacques Chirac instead of paying proper respect to Her Maj?
He may not like the idea of royalty, but tens of millions do. And his job is to represent those people.
His rank bad manners towards the royals are in danger of turning even me into a monarchist.
Certainly, given the option, most British people would rather live in a free, benign kingdom nominally ruled by a kindly old granny than in a federal susperstate run by foreigners, with their tidy minds, armed with their railway timetables and oppressive “human rights” laws.
That makes them “unpatriotic” in the Orwellian Mickey Mouse world which Blair seems to live in.
(Probably one too many metaphors, but you get the drift.)
Blair is ashamed of his own people. We have let him down. Which might explain why he thinks it’s such a good idea to dismantle our borders and import a whole new people.
It is Blair who is out of step, Blair who is unpatriotic.
I repeat, how bloody dare he?
______________
-
Artist
- Guest
Just watched channel 4 news and they had this Aus ex-int guy on (resigned last week).
Basically long and short of what he said was:
Yes US, UK and Aus knew Saddam had WMD program but it was nothing like the scale we were all told before gwII.
The int reps that Aus, cia and mi6 had indicated that although Iraq has this program they could find no intention on Saddams part to use / sell this to and terrorist org (inc al-queda)
They also believed all Iraq's purchased (from us, uk) WMD were all destroyed in the mid 90's - hence their own WMD program.
He did mention though that us, uk and Aus did treat Iraq as a rouge state but its capabilities were nothing like announced prior to gwII.
Just wondering how long it will be before his personal and professional life is totally discredited in the media - any advances on 24 hrs?
Basically long and short of what he said was:
Yes US, UK and Aus knew Saddam had WMD program but it was nothing like the scale we were all told before gwII.
The int reps that Aus, cia and mi6 had indicated that although Iraq has this program they could find no intention on Saddams part to use / sell this to and terrorist org (inc al-queda)
They also believed all Iraq's purchased (from us, uk) WMD were all destroyed in the mid 90's - hence their own WMD program.
He did mention though that us, uk and Aus did treat Iraq as a rouge state but its capabilities were nothing like announced prior to gwII.
Just wondering how long it will be before his personal and professional life is totally discredited in the media - any advances on 24 hrs?
Nuisance
The problem I have is that we are talking about weapons of mass destruction - not stocks of chemical agents or whatever. For Iraq to possess these weapons they would need to have a delivery system capable of hitting a population centre and not merely a few camels in the desert.
True enough Sadam has used chemical agents on the Kurds and the Iranians in the past, but with the indifference (if not the blessing) of the civilised West. The indifference of the "allies" to Iraqi civilians was pretty clear from the number of casualties and the disregard they seem to have now for any kind of infrastructure building (hospitals as opposed to oil installations) and representative government.
By the way I'm gobsmacked that the "allies" haven't planted anything, I wouldn't put it past them.
True enough Sadam has used chemical agents on the Kurds and the Iranians in the past, but with the indifference (if not the blessing) of the civilised West. The indifference of the "allies" to Iraqi civilians was pretty clear from the number of casualties and the disregard they seem to have now for any kind of infrastructure building (hospitals as opposed to oil installations) and representative government.
By the way I'm gobsmacked that the "allies" haven't planted anything, I wouldn't put it past them.
