Should Blue Beret Marines be re-introduced to the Corps?

[Chas]

London Boy,
You are quite right they are desperately short on manpower.
February journal G & L stated that the Corps needed 1265 RM
recruits and 58 RM officers during 2007/2008.
Many of 1Rifles want to complete the AACcse and there will be
a massive drive by them in 2009.
During WW2 as you know the Army stole a march on Royal and
userped their traditional amphibious raiding skills. Royal was
retained as the only fully trained unit for repulsing an attack on
the British Isles.Nevertheless until 1942 and the formation of the
RM Cdos several Royal Marines served in No.8 Army Cdo.
Chas.

[Sully]

Heyup LB . Standards has always been a big thing in the Corps but 'elite' wasn't a word I heard much. We just cracked on with things and often had a different approach to our perce buddies.

As I've said elsewhere, when the commando role was handed to the RM a decision was made that it would take a certain amount of training to get people up to the required standard. The AACC is (I think) 8 weeks and hard though it may be I can assure you that I didn't spend 22 weeks sat on my arse at CTC watching the grass grow. The 30 week course (now 32) was designed to turn out men capable of fulfilling the 'commando' infantry role (for want of a better word) and many failed - even up to week 29. The AACC was designed for attached ranks (engineers, artillery and medics being the obvious - but a token bird on a badge hunts as well having succeeded ) supporting the Bde.

I don't know what the plans are but maybe we're going to have a Bde 'infantry' unit that at best will have done the supporting arms course. Chipper. Maybe Rifles basic training is just as arduous, effective and the rest of it as bootneck training but learning to run a 30 miler or Endurance is a tiny fraction of bootneck training and our phys, fieldcraft and general approach to soldiering took every minute of the 30 weeks.

I mean the Rifles no disrespect but I wouldn't particularly welcome a badge that I didn't feel I earned. As I've also said elsewhere I don't think the Corps should be handed over as a training wing for perce units. Fair enough that bootnecks need to be trained but I don't think taking RM instructors out of operational units in order to get sizeable perce units through a commando course (of sorts) on the cheap isn't what I think the Corps should be doing.

[Duty Booty]

A few of you seem to be going off on a bit of a tangent. This is partly my fault. To give a little background to this discussion topic. I'm constructing a brief on this subject for a promotion course within the Corps, hence why I'm after constructive comments.

My use of the term "Blue Beret" was as it was given to me. This isn't an excuse, as I agree totally with comments about it's proud operational history, which I will include this in my brief.

As for the Rifles, they are filtering blokes through the AACC whilst providing a much needed lift in man power to the Corps. I look forward to seeing them on HERRICK 9 in Afghanistan.

My aim is to examine the pro's and con's of introducing a non-combatant arm to the Corps (beret colour TBC!)

The contribution from the Rifles is valuable, however they are still owned by the Army. Should we not have a force under the same cap badge that will be owned and trained by the Corps to fill specific roles?

The next question might be which roles? For example; Chefs, Clerks, Vehicle Mechanics, Armourers, Stores Accountants, to name a few.

Could we follow the RM Band Service template? Obviously without the instruments! But they undergo 12 weeks of military training to perform limited military roles for the Corps.

What would be the ramifications of a 2-tiered Corps: Dilution of ethos and identity, new pay and conditions?

Thanks.

[London Boy]

PA0578,

You touched slightly on something I had a suspicion about, in that I suspect that some people here and out in the big bad world are worried about other people mixing up the terms RM commando with simply commando. Passing the commando course makes you a commando trained soldier pure and simple, it doesn't make you a Royal Marine commando and I hope no one is claiming that anyway.

But I accept that those fears are partially justified, knowing how pongos like to exaggerate their own training and skill of their unit, so it's obviously going to happen that some 1 Rifles individuals, while on the town, will claim to be marines or commandos to impressionable young women without fully explaining the truth.

[London Boy]

I've always wondered about that. Why do the Royal Marines commando-train their VMs, Chefs etc.? More to the point what does a young lad feel after having put himself through 30 odd weeks of some of the World's most hellacious training only to end up a Chef. Nothing against Chefs (met a few decent ones, a couple of who could even cook!), but who wants to be trained as a steely eyed wielder of a Fairburn-Sykes blade only to end up slinging eggs?

Weren't logistics and support traditionally supplied by Naval personnel i.e. medics? Why not use Navy mechanics and chefs? It could free up trained infantrymen from support roles and give the RN some extra personnel slots. Win-win, no?

The Bde of Gurkhas have a similar set-up. The Gurkha recruits only find out where they're going (i.e. to a Bn or a Corps) after they finish CIC. So the Queens Gurkha Engineers, Signallers and Loggies are actually trained as infantrymen first.

As does II Field Sqn Airborne RAF Regiment, as I'm sure you know.

When I first arrived at RAF Hullavington in early 82, I thought every bloke with wings and in DPM & OGs was a gunner ...far from it.... clerks, cooks, MT drivers, MT mechs, Junior Techs, they'd all done the course.

[Chas]

Duty Booty,

This is a personal opinion.

I believe that it would be an absolute disgrace to have a two tiered system. If you were to suggest that putting it crudely cooks and bottle washers were to wear the blue beret then you demean the old Royals, who wore their blue berets with such pride and you also denigrate a renowned and magnificent history which is still plays its part within the Corps ethos.

(I presume CTCRM which was in my day ITCRM still teaches recruits the relevance of Corps history before visiting the museum at Eastney.)

Furthermore it would be devisive. Like Owdun, albeit ten years later,I can recall some of the friction in UK barracks when Marines and Officers were told in no uncertain terms to get rid of their green berets. " You are not in Brigade now."

Such a proposal is ill advised, divisive and corrosive to the essence of the Corps. In the event of this proposal gaining any acceptance, even if a different beret were to be issued, I still maintain that it would only end in opprobrium.

Simply keep the Blue for recruits and the Green for commando trained.

After all that was the order of the day in 1960 when I was serving and
being taken care of by magnificent and inimitable seniors as a 21 year old Young Joe and real skin !

Yours aye,

Chas. RMV202910 20/06/56.

[Sully]

PA0578, some fair points there bud.

I don't think I made my point very well though. I find it a bit odd that an attached ranks/supporting arms qualification now seems to be the full monty. Eight weeks starting as a fully fed, sufficiently rested, basically trained , soldier is a far different proposition to a fresh faced civvy off the street looking at 32 weeks of utter despair - and I would guess that the end product is a bit different.

If I were in the Rifles I would feel a bit uncomfortable about merely a 'support' role. Nice badge to add to the collection and (cheers LB ) to give it the large one about ashore, but shouldn't a regiment like the Rifles be doing stuff in their own right?

If that's not what's planned then the obvious answer to bolstering the Corps' capabilities would be to revive 41 Independent Cdo or produce another unit so the obvious question is why haven't the MOD gone down that route?

It could be due to cost but it could also be due to the time taken and the wastage figures at CTC. It could be that the MOD have found a way to produce 'commandos' for fighting units more quickly, cheaper and with less wastage than if they left it up to the Corps. As Paul Daniels would say - "now that's magic" So my concern is for the future of the Corps - either being turned into a training cadre, being diluted out of recognition or being binned altogether.

The other alternative would be for the Corps to wake up a bit and free up more bootnecks from jobs such as VM's, clerks etc. I have no idea why they don't do that. It's better to be driven and fed by bootnecks and it was a unique feature of the Corps but it seems the lesser of the two evils.

[London Boy]

PA0578, some fair points there bud.


but shouldn't a regiment like the Rifles be doing stuff in their own right?

Well they are, the Rifles as a regiment has got six other batts (4 reg and 2 TA) doing stuff in their own right. It's only 1 Rifles that's currently commando tasked.

[owdun]

Used to be that you did a full commission as a GD Marine before you could take a SQ.All Cooks,Clerks,Drivers,VMs etc. are Commando trained,so is the Bedding storeman, ,and all capable of moving to a Fighting Troop,Company or whatever the current vogue is.This was always so, and I hope it still is so.


Owdun.

[HCR]

Heres a interesting point.

A lad joins the Rifles, he does his 26 weeks Basic Infantry training at catterick then does his 8 weeks AACC.
Thats 26+8=34 weeks training.

Now as some get suck a c*ck stand on our long there training is compared to others it now seems a Comando trained Rifles lad is better trained than a Royal Marine.

And as the Rifles take there traditions and beret from the old Light Infantry Regiments WHICH INCLUDES THE GREEN JACKETS FUNNY ENOUGH I think you will find that the Rifles beret colour is green anyway

[Doc]

I think the only ones required to comment here are members of the brotherhood.

Whatever capbadge sits on your green lid, you are a commando secondary to role, and attached ranks only wear the green lid when serving within 3 Cdo Units, they revert to blue (or whatever) lids when back at parent unit / service.

So maybe non 3 Cdo Brigade bootnecks should be blue lids only and the commando phase of training is a requirement for service within the brigade. But then again why try and fix what isnt broken. Its not the brigades fault there arent enough blokes, its the current generation of fat blokes and operational requirements needing a bigger brigade.

At the end of the day its 3 Cdo, commando being the operative word and qual required.

Attached ranks serve a purpose whatever the trade or beret colour and most blokes I served with look to the man not the beret colour.

HCR, I dont think you can judge a mans elitism by the duration of training, its the quality. Of the training and the man.

My own training was 8 weeks at HMS Raleigh, 52 weeks at RNMSS Haslar, 26 weeks at CTCRM and a further 4 months on the job training at a unit sickbay before being able to deploy. So thats 102 weeks, and puts your rifles plus AACC quote back up your hoop sideways.

[Pilgrim Norway]