Dieppe Question

[Jon]

I read in the book 'Commandos' by John Parker, that before the Dieppe raid their was an advert in one of the newspapers. The advert was for a coat, but one of the commandos noticed that the coat was laid out and shaped like the coast of dieppe, and that the buttons were placed in what looked like the landing sites for the raid.

Does anybody now if this was true and if the Germans therefore knew the raid was coming?

[Tab]

There had been a lot of talk about a raid coming off before Dieppe had taken place. I would imagine the details were not that hard to get hold off.
It was one of the many lessons learnt after this raid that made the landings in Normandy such a succes.

[df2inaus]

I'm no academic authority on the raid but it has a certain place in the Canadian psyche, as Gallipoli does with the Aussies, and there have been numerous documentaries and even a dramatic miniseries on CBC in 1994.

The defeat came not so much from the Germans expecting the raid, but that they were dug-in with well-defined arcs and the allies went straight into the killing area. Many of the soldiers may have been battle-hardened veterans of the Eastern front and would not easily be intimidated by small-arms fire while they were in concrete bunkers.

German soldiers interviewed later by CBC in 1979 said they were just dumbfounded when the men started hitting the beaches. One senior officer was said to mutter "the English are here" over and over, put on his best thousand yard stare and switched off completely, muttering incoherently in disbelief.

According to the movie, there was originally supposed to be support from naval guns and the RAF, which never materialised, I don't know if this is true or not, CBC loves to blame everyone else for Canada's shortcomings.

What is definitely true was that intelligence gathered on the beaches was from, wait for it, French postcards , as well as photos taken by British officers on holiday before the war. An effort was also made to obtain photos from British civilian tourists.

The main thing the photos did not contain was a low-rise concrete wall which Churchill tanks of a Calgary regiment could not cross. Armoured vehicles also became bogged down in deep concentrations of large round stones, when intel had told them to expect sand.

Throw into the mixture that the phoney war had lasted into 1942 for Canadians, hundreds of thousands of whom were training in England since 1939. The men wanted blood and jumped at the chance to be part of the raid.

I think the German defenders were completely surprised by the whole thing, but that didn't prevent it from being a turkey shoot. The operation was doomed from the beginning, but Mountbatten, Churchill, Roosevelt and Canadians wanted it, so it went ahead despite alarm bells.

[Jon]

From what ive read Mountbatten was deeply against the idea and expected it to be disastrous, especially when Naval and aerial support were rejected. However, he was overruled by Montgommery and Churchill for a variety of reasons, including that the Canadians needed the experience and that British moral was low at the time. Many of the commandos said that they were overconfident due to the success of the Lofotan Island raids and were not really prepared. Many of the landing craft were stranded on sand banks. One group ran in to a German MTB therefore only a limited number were landed. Because they were low in number and acked heavy equipment, they could only snipe at the Germans. There was limited success at the Western end, were a VC (or two?) was awarded and the Germans were removed from thier positions.

[Tab]

I think you will find that the RAF lost quite few aircraft supporting this raid.

[Dave.Mil]

gone

[Tab]

There were a number of tanks that were developed after this raid that helped on the invasion Normandy. There was the Flame thower tank, there was the anti mine tank the flail, There was another that could hurl a charge a size of a dustbin to smash concrete bunkers, there was the road laying tank that laid matting across the beach to stop other tanks getting bogged down, there was the bridge laying tank to cross any anti tank ditches, then there was the swiming tank or DD as it was known, all developed from lesson learned at Dieppe. Also all the troops were kept underguard once they had been informed of there destination. Also the number officers that were involved in the planning were kept to a minimum and under surveillance. Also this raid convinced Hitler this was where the Allies were going to launch there main attack, and he held back the reserves from going to Normandy allowing us to gain a good foothold.
The Canadians at Dieppe made the Victory possible.

[Andy O'Pray]

I have read many accounts of the Dieppe raid, both British and Canadian. The original raid was planned to be a RM raid, these being the troops most experienced in beach assaults. The Canadians had been held in reserve back in the UK. Canadian politicians were insistant that their troops be given a larger part in the war, so Mountbatten was over ruled and the main force would be Canadian troops, commanded by a Canadian officer.

Nos 3 & 4 army commandos and 40 RM commando were attached to the force and they successfully achieved their objectives, which were not too difficult. When the main force went ashore it became apparent that the objective was more heavily defended than first thought and the Canadian troops were taking a hell of a hammering. The Canadian OC ordered 40 cdo ashore to assist the main landing. The unit did not even make it to the beaches. Having lost 247 men, Lt. Col: Phillips RM put on his white gloves and waved his men back from the beaches, an act which cost him his life. The Canadian OC wrote of 40 commando, "Their courage was terrible to see".

All in all, it was an ill conceived raid, forced by politicians and cost the lives of many brave men. The Canadian view of the raid was to blame Mountbatten, this was not so. Albeit he was in overall command he was over ruled by both British and Canadian politicians. Things have not changed much.

Aye - Andy.

[Andy O'Pray]

As a footnote. The GOC of the Dieppe landings was Canadian Major General Roberts, who was later relieved of his command. Another fall guy for the politicians.

Aye - Andy.

[BenChug]

All in all, it was an ill conceived raid, forced by politicians and cost the lives of many brave men. The Canadian view of the raid was to blame Mountbatten, this was not so. Albeit he was in overall command he was over ruled by both British and Canadian politicians.

Too many politicians were involved in the raid part of the raid was to get the boys into action as moral was terrible and at that point in time there were extreme discplinary problems. No bombers, no battleships.
On the way to the the landing zones they were involved in a firefight with a German convoy effectively ending any suprise. Original intelligence reported Dieppe was garrisoned by 500 conscripted troops. The attack force consisted of nearly 5,000 men, 10 to one odds are about as ideal as you can get when planning a raid.

However, due to political knitpicking, tides, weather etc. The raid was held back for several weeks, including several ready to goes cancelled.

Just before leaving they learned that the garrison had be upgraded to approximatly 4,000 troops fresh from the Russian front. Highly experienced soldiers and and they were attacking at almost 1 : 1 odds. Possibly the worst mistake conducted by allied forces during the war

[Jon]

I wonder how many lives were saved at Normandy because of the lessons learned at Dieppe?

That was the main victory. For every man lost at Dieppe 100 were saved at Normandy.

[Gonker]

That was the main victory. For every man lost at Dieppe 100 were saved at Normandy.

By coincidence I've been reading "Eminent Churchillians" by the historian Andrew Roberts just lately - it has a very interesting chapter on Mountbatten and Dieppe. It was Mountbatten who put it about that every death at Dieppe saved a dozen lives at Normandy - Roberts' view is that was utter rubbish - the only "lesson" of Dieppe was one which generals have know for centuries - don't put your men in a killing zone with no way out, especially if the enemy know you're coming.

According to Roberts, Montgomery had insisted that the Dieppe raid be cancelled altogether but was overruled by Mountbatten, who used his royal and political connections (plus his undoubted charm and the fact that he outlived the other leaders) to make sure that his was the definitive version of events. Hence everyone was to blame except Mountbatten.