Hi all, I have a presentation to deliver as part of my training on JHC. I have some info and a route I wish to go down, but I would like some opinions on 'Jointary' in the armed forces in general and also within JHC itself.
Any comments would be much appreciated.
Thanks a lot.
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Joint Helicopter command
Re: Joint Helicopter command
Can you be more specific?
Re: Joint Helicopter command
Yeah, just wanting some opinions on the JHC in its own right and how people view the role of joint operations. I am basically doing a talk on the future of JHC and could do with a bit more about the actual 'jointary' of it rather than just about the use of helicopters, as it is obvious that they have a role in modern conflict.
In addition if anyone has any experience or views on how well joint ops work as a whole that would be useful too.
Don't know how much use that was?? essentially I think I'm looking for advantages and disadvantages of joint ops.
Thanks for your time.
In addition if anyone has any experience or views on how well joint ops work as a whole that would be useful too.
Don't know how much use that was?? essentially I think I'm looking for advantages and disadvantages of joint ops.
Thanks for your time.
Re: Joint Helicopter command
When you are talking about JHC are you then taking in all three services. Now the Navy would be looking for mainly anti submarine and some troop carrying capacity. The Army will be looking for half dozen different helicopters, from Attack to heavy lift for both troops and equipment. The RAF are looking to keep control of some thing that flies and are eyeing up all helicopters to come under their wing regardless of what it does. Now there is some thing to be said for c@#t some one starts empire building. After WW1 the RAF had complete control of every thing that flew even from the Aircraft Carriers and the RN did not get control of of its own planes till just before WW2 and this is one of the reasons they were so badly equipped for the first half of the war and had fly the Gladiators bi planes for most of it. Any money that became available was spent by the RAF on the RAF and the Navy did not get a look in. Now looking at what happened before could you guarantee that this would not happen again if you had JHC
Re: Joint Helicopter command
Jointery Some would say its not a real word..
However to answer your question as best I can:
During the 90's tasking for all services was done independantly so the Army tasked Army A/C and the RM tasked the RN, the RAF were providing a lot of Medium and Heavy lift to the Army but were almost out of the loop and left to do their own thing (Very difficult to order RAF to do something when they are not under Army/Joint control), IIRC the CH47 and Puma were actually procured to provide direct support to the Land Army.
So it was decided that all 3 services would combine under JHC where their would be a rethink of all things Aviation, initially the plan was for the Rules and Regs to be consolidated under the JHC Flying Order book where each branch could then have its own specific section pertinent to the way they Operated (CH47 heavy lift for example). This has worked to some degree, however all 3 services have different NVG criteria still!!
The next problem was who was going to be in charge, this is where a percieved "threat" lies. The RAF were quite worried that JHC with its close ties to Army would be very biaised to them and the RAF would come second, this was also a concern for the RN Commando Helicopter Force. So far as I'm aware the Boss of JHC has been a shared job with Army/RN/RM and RAF having been in charge.
How does it work in the real world? Whenever a major deployment/Op comes up a Helo requirement is produced and each service will be told to provide specific A/C and support for example:
HMS Ocean goes to the Med on Exercise
So through JHC, a Command element will be established (ie 847 Sqn will be given overall command of the Det and have to provide the OC and Senior Instructor to help prepare a lot of the pre deployment package/training). Other's such as the Det 2 i/c will probably come from another Sqn on the Det.
From that JHC will then do the following:
The RAF will be asked to provide Heavy lift in the shape of 2 CH 47.
The RN will be asked to provide Medium lift with 4 SK 4.
The RN/RM will be asked to provide Light lift/utility/Recce with 2/3 Lx AH 7 or 9
The AAC will be asked to provide Armed Attack with 2/4 Apache.
This is a very simplified scenario.
If it sounds like its chaos....it is! Whilst Flying as an RM attached to the Army I had to Operate in an area with Army A/C. Also there were RAF and Navy A/C, the problems were not massive but life wasn't easy!
The Army worked to certain weather limits, the RN's were less. The RAF's were different again!
The RAF worked to a crew duty system, the RN and Army didn't work to it so religiously as they had different criteria.
The RN had the more flexible rules of all 3 services, the Army were fairly good and The RAF's worked provided the work was all done within the crew duty period.
Finally does it work now?
From the AAC/RN/RM and RAF guys I've spoken to then YES while on Ops (Telic and Herrick) all you have to do is look at the way the CH47,SK 4 and Puma's work with each other and the Apache.
Perhaps try reading Immediate Response by Major Mark Hammond RM or Apache Dawn by Damien Lewis for a better insight.
If it sounds like I'm having a pop at the RAF at times then I should explain that their rules were the most inflexible, and at times their attitude at being on board ship were incredibly poor.
Something I forgot to mention is that the Grey Fleet (Lx Mk8, SK7 and Merlin) belonging to the RN comes under Fleet and is not part of JHC.
Others will have other views and I'm sure that things will be continually improving.
However to answer your question as best I can:
During the 90's tasking for all services was done independantly so the Army tasked Army A/C and the RM tasked the RN, the RAF were providing a lot of Medium and Heavy lift to the Army but were almost out of the loop and left to do their own thing (Very difficult to order RAF to do something when they are not under Army/Joint control), IIRC the CH47 and Puma were actually procured to provide direct support to the Land Army.
So it was decided that all 3 services would combine under JHC where their would be a rethink of all things Aviation, initially the plan was for the Rules and Regs to be consolidated under the JHC Flying Order book where each branch could then have its own specific section pertinent to the way they Operated (CH47 heavy lift for example). This has worked to some degree, however all 3 services have different NVG criteria still!!
The next problem was who was going to be in charge, this is where a percieved "threat" lies. The RAF were quite worried that JHC with its close ties to Army would be very biaised to them and the RAF would come second, this was also a concern for the RN Commando Helicopter Force. So far as I'm aware the Boss of JHC has been a shared job with Army/RN/RM and RAF having been in charge.
How does it work in the real world? Whenever a major deployment/Op comes up a Helo requirement is produced and each service will be told to provide specific A/C and support for example:
HMS Ocean goes to the Med on Exercise
So through JHC, a Command element will be established (ie 847 Sqn will be given overall command of the Det and have to provide the OC and Senior Instructor to help prepare a lot of the pre deployment package/training). Other's such as the Det 2 i/c will probably come from another Sqn on the Det.
From that JHC will then do the following:
The RAF will be asked to provide Heavy lift in the shape of 2 CH 47.
The RN will be asked to provide Medium lift with 4 SK 4.
The RN/RM will be asked to provide Light lift/utility/Recce with 2/3 Lx AH 7 or 9
The AAC will be asked to provide Armed Attack with 2/4 Apache.
This is a very simplified scenario.
If it sounds like its chaos....it is! Whilst Flying as an RM attached to the Army I had to Operate in an area with Army A/C. Also there were RAF and Navy A/C, the problems were not massive but life wasn't easy!
The Army worked to certain weather limits, the RN's were less. The RAF's were different again!
The RAF worked to a crew duty system, the RN and Army didn't work to it so religiously as they had different criteria.
The RN had the more flexible rules of all 3 services, the Army were fairly good and The RAF's worked provided the work was all done within the crew duty period.
Finally does it work now?
From the AAC/RN/RM and RAF guys I've spoken to then YES while on Ops (Telic and Herrick) all you have to do is look at the way the CH47,SK 4 and Puma's work with each other and the Apache.
Perhaps try reading Immediate Response by Major Mark Hammond RM or Apache Dawn by Damien Lewis for a better insight.
If it sounds like I'm having a pop at the RAF at times then I should explain that their rules were the most inflexible, and at times their attitude at being on board ship were incredibly poor.
Something I forgot to mention is that the Grey Fleet (Lx Mk8, SK7 and Merlin) belonging to the RN comes under Fleet and is not part of JHC.
Others will have other views and I'm sure that things will be continually improving.
Re: Joint Helicopter command
Thank you very much for that, must have taken a bit of time, much appreciated!
Its good to have an insight from past experience, its given me plenty to talk about.
Thanks again.
Its good to have an insight from past experience, its given me plenty to talk about.
Thanks again.
