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Undercover soldier

General discussions on joining & training in the British Army.
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sterion66
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#32 Post by sterion66 » Tue 23 Sep, 2008 11:46 am

I don't think anyone would dream of taking on Sandy, mainly because i'm pretty sure all the MMA would come in handy and you'll be tied up in a knot trying to work out how to get out. I think some of the stuff he said was a bit far fetched just trying to make a documentary about it. I'm sure a bit of the old "gentle persuasion" goes on but as stated you need to be on top of your game on tour.

Lets see 8 man section 1 forgets his gas mask in time, someone else hasn't cleaned his rifle properly and jams etc... You could find yourself down to half a section quite quickly which makes you 50% less effective. Everything is done for a reason just accept it and learn i guess.

Mike

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CardSharpe
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#33 Post by CardSharpe » Wed 24 Sep, 2008 1:36 pm

ofens wrote:In our training we get punished, beasted, shouted at, criticized, ignored... and it all goes on to channel our efforts in the right directions towards being better at what we need to do.
The "beastings" are really just extra physical training (albeit often in the mud - an environment we need to be accustomed to anyway!), you have to grin and bear it then laugh it off later.

I've had days when I've felt like the B-S would never end but I've never once been treated unfairly or abused in a way that detracts from the end goal.

My concern about this programme is that although it might be exposing some unacceptable behaviour, it is suggesting that it provides a fair insight of Army training that viewers will take on board as fact - and this is bad press for the forces who right now are doing their best without the manpower and resources they need!
You've hit the nail on the head there I think, particularly the last paragraph.

This is one of the main problems with the media as a whole really, they tend to latch onto out-of-the-ordinary examples and present them as if it goes on all the time.

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#34 Post by dwarfy » Wed 24 Sep, 2008 4:02 pm

I just watched the Documentary online and personally i dont think it shows bullying in any form. Im not saying there was definately none going on, but from this 'evidence' it certainly does not portray it. What it does show is 'possibly' some inapropriate behavior from some of the training staff on a few occasions. Bullying though has to be systematic and sustained, for example the same recruit singled out continuosly for no particular reason, in my opinion this program does not show that. The physical violence however should not be happening in my opinion, as i think its counter to the training aim and unjust, basically it just shouldn't happen.

I dont for one second agree with the physical violence used against some of the recruits, not particularily though because of the violence in itself(its a violent job is it not) but because personally i believe there are better more proffesional and more productive ways to get the best out of people, especially recruits in training. I am currently undertaking RT in the RMR and whilst we have been 'beasted' on occasions, a fair few, there has not once been a threat of violence. No one really likes a beasting but you do accept it as a fair punishment if the troops messed up or as an individual you've messed up. You lump it, get some extra phys, and remember not to make the same mistake again(hopefully, or stand by).

Personally i dont think morale would be very high at all if as recruits we were scared of violent reprisals from the training team if we messed up. I dont think for one second this is productive for training either. If someone shows you such little respect by hitting you, why would you respect them back? Trying to get things right because your scared not to does not create a productive training environment in my opinion. Of course their has to be an element of pressure for not taking things on board as quickly as you should or for constantly making the same mistakes, but this pressure should not be created through fear of violence, the thought of having some 'corrective training' is fear enough and does work as it switches you on that little bit more.

From my experience, my troops training team has been absolutely proffessional and have gained the respect of the recruits not just because of their ranks but also because of their instruction and conduct with us. Yes we've been shouted at, yes we've been punished, yes we've had some beastings but on EVERY occasion we have been told why, or later worked out why for oursleves, and on EVERY occasion the reason has been fair and the form of punishment appropriate, it has been fairly uncomfortable but has NEVER crossed the line.

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#35 Post by adamb » Thu 25 Sep, 2008 11:57 am

I think the guy that filmed it was an idiot. Theres people trying to get in the army that can't because of medical reasons or whatever and then he does it just to prove a point to people that theres bullying in the army? Hardly bullying id class it as punishment. a Private swings for someone in command so he floors him? isn't that what anybody would do in any situation? especially in a place like that were theres live ammo and training going on. Im in the process of joining the army and it hasn't put me off one bit, thought the program was all hyped up and the guy that was filming it all overreacted alot.

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#36 Post by UKRoberts » Thu 25 Sep, 2008 4:23 pm

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#37 Post by davidemmerson » Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:03 pm

The iplayer link is now dead, the time has run out. Does anybody else know where you can watch it online? Tried You Tube but no luck.

Thanks,

David

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#38 Post by riflebutt » Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:43 pm

i dont see how you can even call it bullying. when i spent a bit of time with 40 commando at taunton, they made it quite clear not to f@#k around when handling weapons. one of the lads on the range fired off a shot when the order to stop firing was called and he got a kick straight in the stomach by the NCO while he was prone. Nothing about it, in the end it's a tough job, but when it gets serious that's out of order. Everyone knows you get the odd bad NCO who's known to do something like that, you get people like that all over the world.

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#39 Post by CardSharpe » Sun 28 Sep, 2008 12:24 pm

davidemmerson wrote:The iplayer link is now dead, the time has run out. Does anybody else know where you can watch it online? Tried You Tube but no luck.

Thanks,

David
PM sent ;)

I just watched it, and I have to say I was mostly suprised it actually got shown, the guy was building it up before he even got there with this talk about "recurring dreams", I'm sure everyone got joining nerves, he makes it up to be something more.

He goes on hearsay from the recruits the whole time, he never once sees anything that even resembles harsh treatment by the instructors, he changes what he thinks happens whenever he hear's something different and states it almost as fact.

He branches out into "racism" because someone says something that isnt quite PC while he's in bayonet training, he goes on about the recruits talking s**t about what they expect to happen in the middle east, of course they're going to make unpoliticly correct jokes in situations like that given whats happeneing. It seems to me that he just includes that because he's worried everyone will notice that he hasnt actually found anything.

Its like he's so desperate to make something of his little home video that he'd include a picture of his mum in the buff if he thought it would improve his chances of it getting shown.

Lads banter in training, this guy went in there *hoping* to find something to parade infront of everyone on TV, he was obviously well aware of the types of psychology involved in the Army's basic training and he was just playing on that in a way that he knew would work towards his aim of showing "bullying".

And the most ironic thing about the whole episode is that the Army finds and rectify's the "bullying" problem of its own accord before mr undercover soldier even gets out of training.

Just pretty shocked watching it - I cant believe it was allowed to air putting such a baised slant on things, the whole program was like some kind of bad joke - I keep looking for something there that points to actual evidence but its all just rumours and banter.

Bloody reporters :x

Ria

#40 Post by Ria » Sun 28 Sep, 2008 1:19 pm

CardSharpe wrote:Bloody reporters :x

So you want to live in a country like China or Burma, where the public aren't allowed to know what goes on??

The Army shouldn't be a closed book, answerable only to themselves. The public has a right to know what goes on in training.

I didn't think much of the docu, but I'm still glad we live in a country where we're allowed to report on such things.

just_me

#41 Post by just_me » Sun 28 Sep, 2008 2:19 pm

Ria wrote:The public has a right to know what goes on in training.
I disagree.

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#43 Post by MSI64 » Sun 28 Sep, 2008 2:24 pm

The whole Programme simply displayed the BBC desperation for ratings, I watched it because of all the hype beforehand and also went into it with an open mind.
Every act of bullying uncovered by the BBC was either already under investigation or totally unfounded.
As for the rasict comments as has been stated already,It was not taught to the recruit by the Army, that recruit had an opinion before joining up.

Should it have been aired??? I dont think it should but we do live in a free society.

The Reporter should be taken to court for the return of the wages paid and also the cost of training him.
The BBC should give a full apology for the damage the programme has caused to Army recruiting.

The BBC used to be the envy of the world. It stood for quality programming and a upholder of truthful news reporting.
Now it is nothing more than a modern day Roman arena for the howling masses.
Car crash TV, reality trash TV set at the lowest level and bubble gum for the brain.

Ria

#44 Post by Ria » Sun 28 Sep, 2008 2:56 pm

just_me wrote:
Ria wrote:The public has a right to know what goes on in training.
I disagree.

Well, if you ever get your sorry ass into the forces, (highly unlikely with your history of self harm) & you end up getting the shit kicked out of you by staff, (though I doubt this happens on a regular basis) you might think differently.

Now feel free to send this link, together with anything & everything I have ever said on here, to ARRSE, like you did last time, in an attempt to stir shit for me over there.
I stand by everything I have ever said on here, so running off telling tales about me to another Forum does nothing but show you up to be the sad little child you really are.

If you ever had the misfortune to meet me face to face, school boy, I would verbally shred you into tiny pieces.
How brave you are on an anonymous Forum, child. GROW UP.

Ria Bright.

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#45 Post by CardSharpe » Sun 28 Sep, 2008 3:18 pm

Ria wrote:
CardSharpe wrote:Bloody reporters :x

So you want to live in a country like China or Burma, where the public aren't allowed to know what goes on??

The Army shouldn't be a closed book, answerable only to themselves. The public has a right to know what goes on in training.

I didn't think much of the docu, but I'm still glad we live in a country where we're allowed to report on such things.
Present company excepted from that comment Ria, you should know that ;) I dont mean all reporters, there are some to whom "journalistic responsibility" is more than just a catchphrase, but the person who did this report blatantly isn't one of them.

The Army shouldn't be a closed book, but it should be protected from reports that rely solely on hearsay and unsubstantiated claims.

The training is hard for a very good reason given the current situation, discipline where firearms are concerned is surely also very important?

I dislike a lot of the media for its insensitivity and general lack of morals, its a personal preference but I have atleast backed up my criticism against this report with evidence, such as the fact that there is never any violence shown by the instructors at all.

Surely you can see that the reporter in this case is looking just a little too hard, finding next to nothing, and trying to pretend that he's found something important? I mean; the instances of bullying highlighted in the report are the ones that the recruits complain formally about, and those complaints result in an investigation - isn't that showing that the system is working in the interest of the recruits, and against bullying?

I agree, I dont want to live in a place where media is just another arm of the government, a "propaganda machine", however, I really dont like the way the media can currently report nearly anything without having to substantiate it, regardless of any wider implications, and where the only real determining factor seems to be shock value.

In the same way as the Army shouldn't only be answerable to itself, the media should have to answer to someone too - and I know they have "independent review boards", but at best you only ever get an apology, rather than any real action.

I agree reporters are important and I didnt mean to sound like I would rather they weren't allowed to do thier jobs, but I would prefer to see "journalistic reponsibility" being more of the rule, rather than the exception to it.

Surely you can understand that point of view?

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