Six British Troops killed in Iraq

[El Prez]

It's probably worth repeating that we will never understand the thought processes of Middle Eastern, or Far Eastern people. We may consider we have an idea of their thought processes, and their viewpoints, in reality we only scratch the surface.
Attempting to alter the attitudes of both a religious and secular brain-washed nation (Moslem and Tikritis) is an impossibility in the time frame considered by our adorable leaders. It cannot work, and is patently not working. Also using Paras as peace keepers is asking for trouble, anecdotal evidence of a Para punching a local in the face is a prime example of poor quality troops in the wrong role.
Our teams are undermanned, ill prepared and under equipped for the tasks facing them. I can see 40 and 42 getting the 'go forth and get gritty' call again.

[lew]

I was wondering when did the usa get involved in the 2nd world war, was it before or after pearl harbour???

And before people have a pop because I don’t know, my school decided not to teach the 2nd world war to us in history for some obscure reason


lew

[Midshipman786]

The irony about the religious fanatics is that what they are doing is against the laws of Islam. If these so called Muslims were actually religious then they'd be the most peaceful people in the middle east. The groups that call the war in Iraq a jihad is laughable. Maybe if they read the Qur'an then they'd realise the last place they are going is heaven.

attacks on non-combatants ie civilians are forbidden. however u have to remember theres different schools of thought that interpret things rather differently.

[El Prez]

Lew, America was being dragged kicking and squealing into WW2 by Roosevelt before Pearl Harbour(Lend lease of equipment), but the attack on PH was the catalyst for full scale declarations of intent against The Axis Powers, Germany, Italy and Japan.
We were just about holding our own at that point, but desperate for equipment. It's rather like Iraq at present, USA and UK do all the fighting and sorting, then along comes France to offer coffee machines and photocopiers. (substitute USA for France)

[Midshipman786]

It's probably worth repeating that we will never understand the thought processes of Middle Eastern, or Far Eastern people. We may consider we have an idea of their thought processes, and their viewpoints, in reality we only scratch the surface.
Attempting to alter the attitudes of both a religious and secular brain-washed nation (Moslem and Tikritis) is an impossibility in the time frame considered by our adorable leaders. It cannot work, and is patently not working. Also using Paras as peace keepers is asking for trouble, anecdotal evidence of a Para punching a local in the face is a prime example of poor quality troops in the wrong role.
Our teams are undermanned, ill prepared and under equipped for the tasks facing them. I can see 40 and 42 getting the 'go forth and get gritty' call again.

i still think british forces are better at the "hearts and minds" biz than than any other other countrys military.

[lew]

cheerz El prez helpful and informative as always


lew

oh did they not know the british drink tea and not coffee

[may18]

I have to admit, im surprised they used sniffer dogs

theres a few muslims on another forum i frequent, they were outraged at it, due to religion. Obviously it in no way excuses attacking troops. But i would have hoped that the powers that be would have told the guys on the ground not to use sniffer dogs


EL PREZ: just curious, why would paras be worse peacekeepers?. I thought they were amongst the uks best troops?

[Twenty One]

These lads were in a helluva fight and they did themselves proud.I would like to see them posthumously recognised for their bravery above and beyond the call of duty in the extreme circumstances.The Victoria Cross or the George Cross to them all.

[Tab]

There seems to be a lot of confusion over this whole affair, it seem that some Rupert had given a writen agreement that the houses would no longer be seaerch for weapons. Now did he tell any one else about this agreement, as it would appear that 1 Para arrived to do search and the whole place errupted becuase of the broken agreement and had to beat a fighting with drawl. Now I have read reports that may of the soldiers in the rear areas have only been issued with five rounds apiece. So how many rounds did the RMP's have to defend them self's. How was it that
they were so far away from there Land Rover that they could not get to any radio's to call for assistance, or even to be aware what problems they had in 1 Para. I think that there are somay question to be answered it is best not go to far into this sad episode at this moment.

[Twenty One]

Tab, The whole truth may never be known.Why were these lads out on their own without armour or a backup unit.According to the MoD they had radios, but someone was a bit slow in responding to the request for help.Two of the lads were killed in the market area and the other four were killed inside the police station.Why was this allowed by those up top.

[El Prez]

May, the attached is a resume of various blots on their landscape, Telegraph 26.06.03. Some may disapprove of it's inclusion. I would argue that it's the truth and the very public perception of the unit's abilities. There is also another piece by John Keegan entitled 'It's easier to get into a war than to get out of it.' Very perceptive.

Paratroopers have a history of peacekeeping problems
By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 26/06/2003)


The Parachute Regiment is among the world's finest fighting forces but questions have been asked over its suitability for peacekeeping.

Formed during the Second World War, the regiment has a long list of battle honours including Normandy, Arnhem and the Falklands. But its image was badly damaged by Bloody Sunday - Jan 30, 1972 - when troops from the 1st Battalion opened fire on a civil rights march in Londonderry, killing 13 civilians.

A succession of incidents since, mainly in Northern Ireland but also in Kosovo and Afghanistan, has only added to a reputation for being formidable in combat but less reliable in peacekeeping situations.

In February 1990 members of 3 Battalion in Ulster shot a joyrider in the neck. They claimed that he had tried to run them down.

Six months later, a patrol from 3 Battalion went into a republican area of Belfast armed with clubs and beat five men. Four soldiers were fined £450 each. A month later, a patrol from 3 Battalion killed two teenagers when it opened fire on a car carrying joyriders.

In 1992 paratroopers went on the rampage in Coalisland, Co Tyrone, after a patrol was attacked by a crowd. A senior officer was relieved of his command after the incident. A week later, a paratrooper opened fire on a crowd which had surrounded him in the town, wounding three people.

In July 1999 in Pristina, the Kosovan capital, three members of 1 Battalion shot dead two ethnic Albanians who had been firing into the air during celebrations. In February last year, two paratroopers from 2 Battalion shot dead a man in Kabul.

Last part of John Keagans piece.

Post-Ottoman Iraq has never been an easy country to govern. Only under Saddam, who sustained his tyranny by terror, has rule from Baghdad been country-wide. Even so, both the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs gave him frequent trouble.

The current situation therefore perpetuates a pattern that has persisted since 1918. What is remarkable is that, so far, there have been so few casualties among the Anglo-American forces. It has been complacent of the British to believe that their relaxed method of internal policing would spare them losses.

True, the British are good at internal security and are experienced in that role. That is not a guarantee, however, that the Iraqis will love them. Whitehall, Westminster and the Ministry of Defence should have taken more account of history. The Iraqis have twice rebelled against British involvement in their domestic affairs, in 1920 and 1941. There was no reason to suppose that they would not do so again.

What is now needed is that "exit strategy". It cannot be found either in the previous British experiments with "air control" or "divide and rule". For one thing, there are no Assyrians left. The whole community emigrated to America 50 years ago.

A better solution is that of recreating an Iraqi national army, as the British did in the 1920s. There is plenty of raw material - the 200,000 unemployed soldiers at present not under orders and only erratically paid. Their discontent is fuelling the disorder.

It must be a matter of priority to enlist as many as possible, give them Western training and use them to replace the American and British soldiers patrolling the cities and countryside. That programme will take several years until it is completed. Casualties among the Western occupation forces will, meanwhile, continue.

[Bigwig]

First my thoughts go out to the familys of those soldiers. May they be free now.

Reading the above about the paras. Maybe these are exactly the soldiers we should be using for the moment due to to this attack. I think an aggressive approach is just how we should deal with this element of sadam surporters that are left.

[may18]

Thanks el prez

A friend of mine serves in the RGJ and he made a few comments similar to your own a while back. But at the time i put it down to the fierce regmental competition that seems to exist

[USARMY_]

Lew, America was being dragged kicking and squealing into WW2 by Roosevelt before Pearl Harbour(Lend lease of equipment), but the attack on PH was the catalyst for full scale declarations of intent against The Axis Powers, Germany, Italy and Japan.
We were just about holding our own at that point, but desperate for equipment. It's rather like Iraq at present, USA and UK do all the fighting and sorting, then along comes France to offer coffee machines and photocopiers. (substitute USA for France)

Are you serious?

[USARMY_]

El Prez, can you tell me which ones were offering photocopiers and which ones where offering coffee machines?