SA 80 A2 problems

[jamie]

I read in todays SUN that marines have been complaining about the new SA 80 A2 rifles. It's reported to have cost £93 million to develop these which seems alot of money considering that they dont seem to have improved much since its replacement the SA 80. Why cant the marines get the type of weapons they deserve? Ive always considered our armed forces to be the best in the world but the technology we use comes nowhere near to that of the Americans.
Anyone else share my view?

[Shoulderholster]

Dead right!!,someone has pulled the scab off of the old SA80 debate and its going to start running again.
On the old "Once a Marine" forum we had quite a heated debate going on,I'm no fan of the calibre to start with but that has been inproved since it originally came out.
As for the rifle it is and always will be a pile of shit.Even a £90+ million rework by Heckler & Koch isn't going to inprove the format,its down to ergonomics, lets face it the "bullpup" design is flawed from the outset,(except for the Styer AUG which seems to have it cracked).
Not wanting to let all my cats out of the bag to start with, I'll close here and let things "hot up" a bit,(anyway I have to go and pick the wife up from work,and she's in charge you know).
SH

[Chester]

Awww C'mon on SH

Get the debate going

I prefer the sling of the SA80 - extremely versatile - although talking to a an ex-cherry beret sniper yesterday who said he wouldn't even have the M16 - Reckons the old 7.62 is the only way to go

Despite the fact he's an ex-para - he's probably right

[jamie]

I've heard alot about the problems with the reliabilty of the sa 80/A2 but does the LSW suffer the same problems?

[ratso]

Give them back the SLR, dependable, easy maintenance, drop it and it bounced and a lot easier on the arms when on parade at stand easy, A TRUE LEANING POST.
Having fired both I will always prefer the SLR, then having fired HK mmmmm well true love comes from Germany and the Police have it right. They tried every weapon in the world and what did the buy......
Ask a Police maksman who has tried the SA 80 they think it's allright but you wouldnt swap 100 for 1 of their HK's.
Yep it's true we are trained to overcome, I'm just glad I was trined to overcome with a four foot black mamba with true stopping power and single shot.
We seem to be heading the way of the Yanks fire more rounds your bound to hit something.
The other side is that this piece of scrap weighs as much as the SLR... definatly would hate drill these days.
Yep IT HAS a great sling .......

[mmm]

I was trained with the SLR but switched to the SA80 in the late eighties nalong with everyone else although more recently i have become familiar with the HK family of weapons. I have used the A2 and can say that it is definately an improvement. Its reliability(and lets face it that is what counts) is miles ahead of the SLR, the old SA80 but not yet that of a G3 or 53.
Only trouble i or those i have spoken to have found with the A2 is the stronger extractor has pulled the base of the round from the cylinder causing a hard extraction (sounds painful).
well thats my thoughts

[owdun]

The choice of favorite weapon is an individual thing,the carriage of the
ammunition's for weapon's is not.We have had this discussion before now,
and I still maintain,that aimed single shot is more productive than to just
point in the general direction ,and loose of a magazine.The support
weapon's LMG's etc, should be capable of laying down a field of rapid fire
whilst the individual soldier uses his skill at arm's to conserve ammo,and
use it efficiently.
Aye Owdun.

[Shoulderholster]

Long ago in the depths of time (that only people like Owdun can remember) the 1950s,the British army wanted a totally new rifle concept.
Enfield came up with the EM2 in a then radical 6mm cartridge,it was a "Bullpup" design.
Anyway it was shelved for various reasons,to expensive,to radical,etc etc.
After the NATO trials also in the fifties we went with the FN SLR and 7.62 Nato,the Yanks were also supposed to go that way as well but they stuck with 30-06 and the M14,after a while they also went to 7.62.
In the 70s the EM2 with an AR18 shoved up its arse made an appearance
in 4.85mm,this was to be trialed for a new weapon system for the 80s.
The original SA80 was a well made bit of kit,but to expensive and had to be made down to a price.
Now we get to talk politics,it is alleged(this is for legal reasons)when they sold off the Royal Ordanance Factories in the early 80s,to make them a more attractive propersition thay had to have a full order book.
What could be better than a contract to equip the entire British armed forces with a new rifle,the rest is history.
Traditionally the commonwealth countries always used the same rifle as us
but the Canadians went to the M16,the Aussies use the Styer AUG,even the Falklands Defence Force use the Styer.That must tell us something!!.
The perfect military rifle must be robust,reliable and ambidextrous the SA80 is neither of these.
The calibre is marginal to say the least,that is why military sniper rifles stick with 7.62 and MGs in the SF role still use it.
I notice that US Seals have gone back to using the M14 in 7.62 NATO after the failures of 5.56.
If I could choose my rifle it would be a close run thing between the FN SLR
the G3 and the M16A2.
BUT I DO LIKE THE SLING ON THE SA80.
SH

[ratso]

Definatly Obsene and heard if you are on the firing range Loz mmmmm what a sight that would be watching you go all weak at the knees.....
Anyone got an AK for the weekend???????
Well the AK will fire even after five years in an African bog full of shite and crap and rusted to hell
and look how many countries have it as weapon of choice.
I have to say I would't like to be up against an army equipped with them if we had the SA (Shite Armaments) 80.

[jamie]

i think alot of us here dislike the sa 80 (that is prob an understatement) however are we forgetting its plus points? (SUSAT,sling, size etc?)
i think all weapons have their good and bad points and in each conflict one weapon may be better than another but if the enviroment changes i.e from fields to built up areas, wouldnt the sa 80 be more valuable in a house than than a ak47/74?
just my point of view guys n gals, so dont be too hard on me

[Chester]

but if the enviroment changes i.e from fields to built up areas, wouldnt the sa 80 be more valuable in a house than than a ak47/74?

This was one of the selling points of the 'Weapon 5.56' as a PWI once told me to call it

Being short and stubby, it's ideal for entering buildings i.e. NI

Doesn't help too much if you are left handed however - receiving a Sun-Tan from a face full of hot metal isn't good - I'm amazed that some do-gooding scrote hasn't yet rallied a party to sue the Government for being discriminative against people that are left handed

[Shoulderholster]

Loz
You will have to come on holiday with me next time I go to Texas,three years ago I went to stay with a friend and we had a look around the BIG Dallas gun show.
They had racks of unissued SKS carbines for $35 each,so we bought one and a couple of thousand rounds of mega cheap ammo.
We shot that thing to death,tried all sorts of things to make it malfunction(short of blocking the barrel) it was Mr Reliability.
But it couldn't shoot very straight,something I've found most of the Soviet Bloc stuff has in common.
Sigs,now your talking phwoarrr!!,best pistol I've fired,talk about inspire confidence.
Now back to the SA80,there was a left handed option when it first came out,but this was turned down for one reason or another. A good way of turning a left handed marksman into a mediocre righthanded shot!!.
Under ideal conditions the SA80 is a very accurate weapon,shame we were let down by politics.
SH

[feathers]

the airborne don't use slings, so it has even fewer redeeming features for me.. SUSAT is great, M16 with a SUSAT? That would be just the ticket..

[JR]

Going Back into the mists of time again,just after the event of powder and shot when the 'vickers'reigned supreme,when that baby entered the arena you could rely on good support,and with the bolt action 'Enfield' every shot counted,oh and I got as far as using the 7.62,and the 'Gympy'.
Aye JR (one of the old and bold) and no comments from any of you Flash B*****d's except Owdun???

[owdun]

Though I loved the .303 Enfield rifle,I have no objection to a semi-automatic weapon,providing it can hit hard and true.Like JR,I had some
experience with the original Belgian FN's,and found it a reasonably good
weapon of its kind.What happened after 1960 I know not,but you lad's never seem to have been happy with the later crop of firearms.
The average Royal of my day would shoot a range course at least once
a year,service condition's allowing,and most were reasonable shots with
the gear of the day,and happy with it under most situation's.
Aye Owdun