Hi folks, i'm new here and hopefully going to enlist soon, depending on the technicalities.
This whole bloodlust caught my eye, ..lol
Talk to alot of 16 to 18 year olds and the general attitude seems to be to kick some ass, shoot stuff, blow things up. lol
I'd have thought the emphasis should be on not getting shot or blown up, but still.
I feel a bit "old" , 24 years old attempting to get in but trying to think objectively away from Politics, I disagree more often than not with Blair but that's a different issue.
What I will say, I have no sympathy for any cause of people who kill in order to make a point, indescriminately. By all means shoot at our troops, (hopefully me too soon, odd as that sounds) but not everyday folk going about their business....
I feel powerless sat here studying the Politics , the reasons, the whys , the hows... to move on, and get past any prejudice I might have, to better myself I have to enlist.
From the start i've watched all this come about, i've endured scum beheading innocent civilians infront of the world, bombing them at home and abroad without any consideration, maybe im sensitive to such matters than most, but I can't sit on my rear anymore.... put my money where my mouth is and enlist, and I ask anyone with this idealology of "Small Price To Pay" when it comes to our people , to do the same.
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People who want to kill
I see where your coming from mate, but dont make the mistake that you can fix all of lifes problems. Better to learn about the world in my opinion than rush headlong into a situation that you can not control. Learning about the reasons the whys, the hows, etc, is essential to solve a problem. Whats happening in Iraq is not unique.
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Chateau Lafite
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- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sat 30 Jul, 2005 1:36 pm
- Location: Cardiff
Damolee - I salute you. You seem to be a man with a true sense of honour, and that old-fashioned virtue of patriotism.
However I am concerned that you believe that the sacrifices we all make are at all noticed by the people in whitehall. They are playing a game with our lives. The only time they care is when the 9 o'clock news is pointing a camera at us - apart from that they coundn't give a f***. And if you think our actions are guided by a higher moral purpose then;
*Why are we not invading Zimbabwe (No Oil perhaps?!)
*Why didn't we invade Israel rather that Iraq. (As they had breached more UN resolutions - and they definitely have WMD!)
Just a thought,
However I am concerned that you believe that the sacrifices we all make are at all noticed by the people in whitehall. They are playing a game with our lives. The only time they care is when the 9 o'clock news is pointing a camera at us - apart from that they coundn't give a f***. And if you think our actions are guided by a higher moral purpose then;
*Why are we not invading Zimbabwe (No Oil perhaps?!)
*Why didn't we invade Israel rather that Iraq. (As they had breached more UN resolutions - and they definitely have WMD!)
Just a thought,
I've been over the politics of my decision, my trouble was... I got too worked up over it.
I've been ranting about Zimbabwe for months, infact i'd have sooner us liberated those people over anything else, ...stabilising Iraq ..*Cough* ...erm, attacking Iraq was simply part of the Global Strike iniatitive on global terrorism.
Not being offensive towards the Jews and Israel ....your quite right there, but the fact remains these people have roots dug far into America and even here, on a Coalition scale we are effectively the same "roots".
The war on Terror, basically translates to blowing the hell out of any Islamic country that shows traditional traits. Iran recently hung a 17yr old girl for defending herself against three rapists, that isn't uncommon and it's not long now before they getteth le smackdown. With this mini conquest going on, the impact of attacking Iran would hit North Korea hard, good news is , we embraced China into our industry sectors, the US relies heavily on them these days. They wouldn't interfere on the next step, being N. Korea.... no doubt in all this the Palestinians will act up and be put down by the Israelis and Operation Democracy is in full effect.
I'm not saying it's ethically right, far from it.... but it will bring us a step closer to ending terrorism and me ...if I pass the medical lol .....a step closer to a pension, seeing as i'm not entitled to a state one. lol
Ofcourse, this might all goto pot if the Yanks elect a Democrat or Liberal president next time around, that'll be a four year grace and re-arm period the Middle East by which time the Republicans get back in and start WMDing again.
My patriotic virtues are going out the window lately, this PCism crap over here has to slow down a tad, i'd sooner be "out there" doing something rather than getting ranted at back home for putting up Xmas tree lights.
The higher moral purpose is a greedy business driven one, and that'll guarantee my future kids and aborted abortion bubby Caspers a chance away from this high tax, high costing property circle we've gotten into.
I've been ranting about Zimbabwe for months, infact i'd have sooner us liberated those people over anything else, ...stabilising Iraq ..*Cough* ...erm, attacking Iraq was simply part of the Global Strike iniatitive on global terrorism.
Not being offensive towards the Jews and Israel ....your quite right there, but the fact remains these people have roots dug far into America and even here, on a Coalition scale we are effectively the same "roots".
The war on Terror, basically translates to blowing the hell out of any Islamic country that shows traditional traits. Iran recently hung a 17yr old girl for defending herself against three rapists, that isn't uncommon and it's not long now before they getteth le smackdown. With this mini conquest going on, the impact of attacking Iran would hit North Korea hard, good news is , we embraced China into our industry sectors, the US relies heavily on them these days. They wouldn't interfere on the next step, being N. Korea.... no doubt in all this the Palestinians will act up and be put down by the Israelis and Operation Democracy is in full effect.
I'm not saying it's ethically right, far from it.... but it will bring us a step closer to ending terrorism and me ...if I pass the medical lol .....a step closer to a pension, seeing as i'm not entitled to a state one. lol
Ofcourse, this might all goto pot if the Yanks elect a Democrat or Liberal president next time around, that'll be a four year grace and re-arm period the Middle East by which time the Republicans get back in and start WMDing again.
My patriotic virtues are going out the window lately, this PCism crap over here has to slow down a tad, i'd sooner be "out there" doing something rather than getting ranted at back home for putting up Xmas tree lights.
The higher moral purpose is a greedy business driven one, and that'll guarantee my future kids and aborted abortion bubby Caspers a chance away from this high tax, high costing property circle we've gotten into.
I dont wont to cause any offense mate, but 'a big step to stopping terrorism?' you must be having a laugh.
You join the forces and you serve te state - not people from foreign nations. The state, of any country, will do things in its own interests. The people in places of Iraq, Zimbabwe, etc, may get benign effects from 'intervention' - if you can call it that - but any benefit to thier lives should not be seen as a moral gift from foreign nations.
The UK and the USA may not go round intentionally killing civilians - although civilian deaths are an inevitable cause of thier actions - but you can not see the world in black and white. Every nation or group within war seeks to claim the moral highground and cast itself as defenders of rights for the purposes of political ends. Everything is in gray.
Groups like al Qaeda in Iraq may be extreme, but thier beliefs and tactics derive from a wide range of complex upbringings and teachings. If a problem is to be solved, you need to tackle the roots. Western nations can not be seen as the moral guardians of the world. It is simplistic and false to believe so.
I respect you for wanting to fight for what you believe in. But your enemies will also be fighting for what they believe in. War is nothing but the clash of ideas and killing the enemy will just get rid of those who hold those ideas. The ideas themselves will not go away. Just keep that in mind and never have some psychological delusion that all the worlds problems - be they ours or someone elses - will be solved in a war.
But if you believe in it, thats your choice so go for it.
You join the forces and you serve te state - not people from foreign nations. The state, of any country, will do things in its own interests. The people in places of Iraq, Zimbabwe, etc, may get benign effects from 'intervention' - if you can call it that - but any benefit to thier lives should not be seen as a moral gift from foreign nations.
The UK and the USA may not go round intentionally killing civilians - although civilian deaths are an inevitable cause of thier actions - but you can not see the world in black and white. Every nation or group within war seeks to claim the moral highground and cast itself as defenders of rights for the purposes of political ends. Everything is in gray.
Groups like al Qaeda in Iraq may be extreme, but thier beliefs and tactics derive from a wide range of complex upbringings and teachings. If a problem is to be solved, you need to tackle the roots. Western nations can not be seen as the moral guardians of the world. It is simplistic and false to believe so.
I respect you for wanting to fight for what you believe in. But your enemies will also be fighting for what they believe in. War is nothing but the clash of ideas and killing the enemy will just get rid of those who hold those ideas. The ideas themselves will not go away. Just keep that in mind and never have some psychological delusion that all the worlds problems - be they ours or someone elses - will be solved in a war.
But if you believe in it, thats your choice so go for it.
The War on Terror is not necessarily blowing the shit out of any Islamic country that shows traditional traits. Who are we in the West to decide which strain of Islam is best?
The War on Terror is removing any opponents that the US state deems threatening. This includes any Islamic groups thats seeks to tear down national boundaries in the Muslim world. Just immagine will you the strength economically, politically, strategically, militaristically, that a unifed Islamic superstate pocessed! It would rival that of China, the EU, the US, India and any other great/super power. The last thing any nation wants in a global market economy is more competition.
Also imagine the consequence if Iran gained nuclear weapons, and the Shia alliance in Iraq annexed with Iran. They would control the vast majority of world order. Democracy in the ME will only stall a process that has been underway for hundreds of years. National identity does not superseed Islam in the Muslim world.
The War on Terror is removing any opponents that the US state deems threatening. This includes any Islamic groups thats seeks to tear down national boundaries in the Muslim world. Just immagine will you the strength economically, politically, strategically, militaristically, that a unifed Islamic superstate pocessed! It would rival that of China, the EU, the US, India and any other great/super power. The last thing any nation wants in a global market economy is more competition.
Also imagine the consequence if Iran gained nuclear weapons, and the Shia alliance in Iraq annexed with Iran. They would control the vast majority of world order. Democracy in the ME will only stall a process that has been underway for hundreds of years. National identity does not superseed Islam in the Muslim world.
If the ideas entail killing civilians, hanging teenage girls for self defence, suicide bombing public places etc ... Suppose you could that a clash of ideals.I respect you for wanting to fight for what you believe in. But your enemies will also be fighting for what they believe in. War is nothing but the clash of ideas and killing the enemy will just get rid of those who hold those ideas. The ideas themselves will not go away. Just keep that in mind and never have some psychological delusion that all the worlds problems - be they ours or someone elses - will be solved in a war.
But if you believe in it, thats your choice so go for it.
Don't think I came across the right way in my post, too many beers I think.
I do that alot, ....War doesn't solve problems, but it can prevent them.
It's the ones back home, both economically and security based i'm interested in, but call it interfering if you will....if it came about that laws in some countries were modernised to the extent they didn't curtail hanging children, i'd be happier. Government change can bring that about.
Think I should reconsider the forces and join an Islamic Women's Rights group or something... LOL ...wonder how i'd look in Hijaab satire.
Well, I like to think objectively on it....
Unfortunately, it's not just a few people, if you study the UN findings in alot of countries who have trouble modernising through their faith, it's not generally the Religion to blame, it's more a case of generational differences. In cultures where the elders are deemed to hold the wisdom without question, you run into allkinds of civil rights problems.
Ultimately, Bush waged war because of one man.... Bin Laden.
He himself has said that, might have been one of his famous "Bushisms" but he did say it none the less.
It's not just about waging war for a few people, if you look at the bigger picture, removing Government's who pose a threat to neighbouring countries may just involve one man.
Suppose it is for the sake of a few, for the sake of many more.
Unfortunately, it's not just a few people, if you study the UN findings in alot of countries who have trouble modernising through their faith, it's not generally the Religion to blame, it's more a case of generational differences. In cultures where the elders are deemed to hold the wisdom without question, you run into allkinds of civil rights problems.
Ultimately, Bush waged war because of one man.... Bin Laden.
He himself has said that, might have been one of his famous "Bushisms" but he did say it none the less.
It's not just about waging war for a few people, if you look at the bigger picture, removing Government's who pose a threat to neighbouring countries may just involve one man.
Suppose it is for the sake of a few, for the sake of many more.
By your logic it would be justified to wage war against the United States to prevent it from waging war on other countries.
You also assume that modernisation is the key to human happiness, something which I dont necessarily disagree with but it does seem a bit naive. We do not, and we can not, wage war on nations for the sake of democracy or modernisation. Liberalism often claims to be a tolerant system, but enforcing it onto others is intolerance.
Do not forget that it was often viewed that colonisation was justified to civilise - or modernise - enite societies. Not only was colonisation authoritarian, it was bloody.
Democracy took centuries, even millenium to come about. Trying to enforce it within the space of a few years - as seen in Iraq - will only result in chaos and anarchy, and countless deaths - not only from the insurgency, guerrillas, criminals or terrorists, but from conventional armed forces.
It was only 50 or so years ago that black people were lynched in the United States, while racism, xenophobia and crime are still diseases in our own societies. If a better form of social order manifests itself tomorrow, will that have the right to enforce itself on us? Like communism, Islamism, Capitalism, Socialism? If so you have a sort of leap-frog effect were new idealogies exert themselves on one another because they claim the moral highground. that would essentialy mean endless war that would lead into some kind of Orwellian / Huxleyian world. Progress takes time.
What we may view as best for us is not necessarily best for other people. It may not even be best for us. No one system is perfect. It is necessary to take other peoples considerations into account.
Plus, if you look at the bigger picture it is western economies that contribute extensively to global damage. Modernising more countries will just contribute to that damage. If you read the independant yesturday the consequences of our system of social order is going to take a huge bite out of humanity and the environment.
It depends which way you look at it.
You also assume that modernisation is the key to human happiness, something which I dont necessarily disagree with but it does seem a bit naive. We do not, and we can not, wage war on nations for the sake of democracy or modernisation. Liberalism often claims to be a tolerant system, but enforcing it onto others is intolerance.
Do not forget that it was often viewed that colonisation was justified to civilise - or modernise - enite societies. Not only was colonisation authoritarian, it was bloody.
Democracy took centuries, even millenium to come about. Trying to enforce it within the space of a few years - as seen in Iraq - will only result in chaos and anarchy, and countless deaths - not only from the insurgency, guerrillas, criminals or terrorists, but from conventional armed forces.
It was only 50 or so years ago that black people were lynched in the United States, while racism, xenophobia and crime are still diseases in our own societies. If a better form of social order manifests itself tomorrow, will that have the right to enforce itself on us? Like communism, Islamism, Capitalism, Socialism? If so you have a sort of leap-frog effect were new idealogies exert themselves on one another because they claim the moral highground. that would essentialy mean endless war that would lead into some kind of Orwellian / Huxleyian world. Progress takes time.
What we may view as best for us is not necessarily best for other people. It may not even be best for us. No one system is perfect. It is necessary to take other peoples considerations into account.
Plus, if you look at the bigger picture it is western economies that contribute extensively to global damage. Modernising more countries will just contribute to that damage. If you read the independant yesturday the consequences of our system of social order is going to take a huge bite out of humanity and the environment.
It depends which way you look at it.
Western Economies perhaps do add to the global damage, but try arguing they aren't the most civilised, free, where civil rights are a priority?
I won't deny there have been times in fairly recent history where that hasn't always been the case, but effectively that's where it was pioneered ....so to speak.
I do worry these changes are all being brought about too quickly, but the majority of people want to live in a civilised society where people have real rights ... rights to practice beliefs and religion as they see fit, and live peacefully, how they want to.
It's uncanny how once alot of what I call "sheltered countries" get just a taste of western civilisation they want more? ...perhaps these freedoms, and freedom of choice is part of human nature.
If this wasn't the case, why are more and more people moving to places like Britain everyday?
I'd love to think they could keep their cultural entities aswell as experiences thatwe have and take for granted, that they yearn for... and this is a majority might I add, Iraq is a good example of this... more people than not want to live in a democracy type society.
I won't deny there have been times in fairly recent history where that hasn't always been the case, but effectively that's where it was pioneered ....so to speak.
I do worry these changes are all being brought about too quickly, but the majority of people want to live in a civilised society where people have real rights ... rights to practice beliefs and religion as they see fit, and live peacefully, how they want to.
It's uncanny how once alot of what I call "sheltered countries" get just a taste of western civilisation they want more? ...perhaps these freedoms, and freedom of choice is part of human nature.
If this wasn't the case, why are more and more people moving to places like Britain everyday?
I'd love to think they could keep their cultural entities aswell as experiences thatwe have and take for granted, that they yearn for... and this is a majority might I add, Iraq is a good example of this... more people than not want to live in a democracy type society.
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wannabe_bootneck
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- Joined: Sun 01 Feb, 2004 5:23 pm
- Location: Nottingham, england
