Homosexuals in the Armed Forces.

[snyder]

Well, Red, at least it's only words.

[Kat =^..^=]

I quote from a recent book about Sparta, Paul Cartledge's "The Spartans":

. . . One particularly striking instance of this displaced
or surrogate fathering [referring to the Spartan
tradition of taking youngsters from their homes at
age 7 and placing them in barracks under the
tutelage of a mentor] was the institution of ritual-
ized pederasty. After the age of 12, every Spartan
teenager was expected to receive a young adult
warrior as his lover...(p. 69)

[Kat =^..^=]

Other Greek states were quick to emulate the Spartan practice notably Thebes. The Thebans did not institute a societal homosexuality, but only for a select warrior group dubbed "The Sacred Band"
with numbers limited to 100. When the Macedonians finally conquered Greece at the battle of Chaeronea, all the Greek troops were routed and fled the field except the Sacred Band. They fought on to the last man with a ferocity not seen in Greece since Thermopylae. It brings to mind the edict of Lykurgus : A man will fight for his friend but die for his lover.

[Artist]

Please explain to me how the Ancient Greeks have any bearing on todays modern society?

In them days it was considered to be the norm to be a Queer and join the Armed Forces. Well not now in any way shape or form. That type of society died out over 2,500 years ago. It is the 21st century for Christ sake!

It's illegal to be in the forces if you are a Homosexual. It's one area where the PC Brigade are going to have to accept that the average Bloke wants nought to do with queers. Without trust you have no disipline and without disipline your in trouble!

Artist

[Chuckie1970]

Please explain to me how the Ancient Greeks have any bearing on todays modern society?

In them days it was considered to be the norm to be a Queer and join the Armed Forces. Well not now in any way shape or form. That type of society died out over 2,500 years ago. It is the 21st century for Christ sake!

It's illegal to be in the forces if you are a Homosexual. It's one area where the PC Brigade are going to have to accept that the average Bloke wants nought to do with queers. Without trust you have no disipline and without disipline your in trouble!

Artist

I find it suprising that it is illegal to be in the armed forces if you are gay. If i was kicked out because i was gay (not that I am and there is nothing wrong with it.. to each his own i say) I would sue the defence departments a%rse off... and I would win.

I had a couple of mates who were submariners in the early 90s, their cook was gay and all the guys knew it. Being in a tin can out to sea for months at a time some ones sexuality wasn't an issue for these guys who were all great mates.

[Chuckie1970]

Redhand..

you may not find it sexually attractive 2 girls together.

But I can guarantee that 90% of straight men love the idea of 2 girls together.


Tab...

So what your saying is that gay girls (or girls in general) don't need to be trusted because they are not in the front line.

My mate in the navy (she is a straight girl) who identifies via numeric codes ...enemy ships, planes etc whilst in battle... then has to report her findings to the captain and only the captain. Are you saying she shouldn't be trusted? She is on the front line.

[Cliodna]

Don't you lot think that all this nit-picking is going a bit too far now???
People have their opinions about the whys and wherefores of why queers shouldn't (or should) be allowed in the Armed Forces.

No-one is going to change anyones mind here....there is obviously always going to be 2 camps (bad pun ) on this issue.

The angora jumper and sandals with socks do-gooding brigade got their way and now its no longer "illegal" to be a queer in the Armed Forces, hence, as whats seen by some, the active recruiting of queers.

Chuckie1970,
please don't start spouting the "my friends a girl and she does a front line job". We've debated that elsewhere and with far better examples than that of some split arse who reports to the Captain.

So unless anyone has anything constructive to say on this topic, I suggest that you just give it a rest.
To say that it is now tedious is something of an understatement

[Colin]

What about Transexuals?

Are they allowed in and if they are, are they female or male, frontline or rear?

You could have a situation whereby a transexual completes the AACC or P-Coy.


PS: I am NOT a transexual, before anyone asks.

[Artist]

Chuckie1970

You find it surprising do you?

If you were sued by the armed forces for being queer you'd sue and win!? Don't think so sunshine. The Armed forces are not a PC civil Company. They are what it says they are Armed Forces and the Courts can say whatever they like the end result is always the same. Your Queer, your out!

As Clioda says this is getting boring. And Farking tedious as well.

Artist

[gash-hand]

Gays have been in the armed forces since the year dot, it's an open secret. It's just that they haven't been able to admit it to anyone, so as far as the question goes I think we are about 700 years too late.

I guess the real question this topic is asking is whether gays should be allowed to behave in an open manner whilst serving in one of the forces. This goes far beyond all the usual arguments of bloke refusing to do what he's told because boyfriend is in trouble etc etc, this was all said when the RN took the decision to use women on front line ships - i've yet to read a report that says that anything approaching the above scenario has actually happened - however that may be more due to the fact that the RN hasn't lost any ships in combat (thank God) since WRENS were allowed on board.

I think most of the problems associated with gays in units is probably due to how that unit will be percieved from the outside, after all a headline of 'gay rifleman joins 40 CDO RM' hardly conjures up a vision of a fighting elite, but if the guy passes the course whats the problem? And does it mean that just because you're gay you have to be a Graham Norton clone?

Unfortunalty we don't have any experience in the forces of open homosexuality in this country so we have to use research from overseas - the problem with that is that their forces are generally inferior and so provide a distorted view of the situation.

Personlly I've never had a problem with beefers being allowed to do their thing, however as we straight guys can't bring women back whilst living on board it's only fair they restrict their activities to areas outside of the camp.

I also think that a lot of this 'no gays in the forces' thing is down to jungle law. As a test I elected to offer my opinion on this matter when all around me were all opposed to the idea, it was quite enlightening to see how many others also changed their mind once someone had 'broken the rules'.

You see, I don't give a sh*t if someone is blue, black, red, green or yellow or whether they hang to the left, right, upside down or back to front. All that matters to me is when the sh*t goes down they can do their job.

Mabay I'm just a bit simplistic.

[barrybudden]

It's illegal to be in the forces if you are a Homosexual.

Unfortuately its not. There allowed in now, we dont have any that I know off. Dont think they would be welcome either.

We get an ITD Moral Understanding all about seeing things from the other point of view. Being nice to homosexuals etc. The instructor did sort of pick on me one time and said that I had a problem as I would accept one in our Company.

[snyder]

The toughest guy I've ever known, bar none, was a homosexual special forces trooper in the U.S. military. A friend from way back. I'm a civilian, so I can't tell you anything about his performance. I can say that I once visited him where he was stationed and several people told me what a great guy he was. Those comments were unsolicited by me.

[Redhand]

Snyder,

This topic is supposed to be dropped on request of the admins...so do us all a favor and drop it.

[Guest]

The Israeli military, which is considered to be one of the premier fighting forces in the world, has a long history of inclusion of gay and lesbian soldiers in its ranks. A strong ethos of universal service in defense of the nation, the demands of a country continuously at war, and the recognition of the importance of military service for future success has made the IDF wary of officially excluding categories of citizens. Given Israel's traditionally closed attitudes toward homosexuality, however, IDF leaders worried that gay and lesbian soldiers were vulnerable to blackmail and might face additional problems adapting to military life. Military commanders chose to handle these potential problems in 1983 by restricting security clearances and mandating additional psychological tests. Homosexuality in itself was not viewed as threatening to either the success of military operations or the integrity of unit cohesion; IDF leaders felt that individual problems relating to the socially negative consequences of a same-sex sexual orientation could be handled within the military itself.

The 1993 changes in IDF policy concerning homosexual soldiers came about as a result of larger legal and societal changes that began with the 1988 repeal of the anti-sodomy laws and reached a turning point with Professor Even's 1993 Knesset testimony. Confronted with the embodiment of the masculine military ideal, the IDF faced public criticism for the discriminatory consequences of its regulations. While the IDF had insisted that its restrictions on service in sensitive positions stemmed only from an increased vulnerability of homosexuals to blackmail, the fact that Professor Even lived openly with another man negated the issue of extortion. His stately manner and professional success further belied the possibility that his dismissal was due to psychological instability. The response by the military was swift and apologetic. The IDF developed new regulations that it heralded as both the formal enactment of an informal policy of inclusion and further protection against discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Although no studies have been conducted that formally analyze the impact of either the restricted or unrestricted inclusion of sexual minorities in the IDF on operational effectiveness; combat readiness; unit cohesion; or morale, there is no indication that the participation of homosexuals has compromised Israel's military performance. IDF officials have declared that the inclusion of homosexuals has not harmed its operations, and RAND and GAO reports in 1993 concluded that Israel's policies had had no negative effect. Further, the scholars, former and present military personnel, and representatives of gay and lesbian organizations interviewed for this report indicated that they had not heard any intimations that IDF performance had been compromised by the inclusion of openly gay and lesbian soldiers. In this security-conscious country, where the military is considered to be essential to the continued existence of the nation, there has been no public debate or expressions of concern about possible harm to IDF rates of success by sexual minorities.

While sexual minorities have achieved substantial legal reforms over the past decade, informal changes are occurring at a slower pace. Actual conditions in the Israeli military for homosexuals reflect the fluid boundary between the IDF and the rest of society. Gays and lesbians have traditionally been largely invisible in both the military and Israeli society generally, a situation that is only gradually shifting. Like the rest of the nation, the IDF in the past decade appears to have been a site of increasing openness of, and tolerance toward, sexual minorities. And while no official statistics are available for harassment rates of sexual minorities in the IDF, scholars, military officials and representatives of gay organizations alike assert that vicious harassment is rare.

In addition, all available evidence suggests that the 1983 IDF ban on homosexual service in sensitive positions was never fully implemented, and openly gay soldiers were allowed to serve in combat units and as officers as well. Decisions about known gay and lesbian soldiers were largely left to the discretion of individual commanders, a situation that enabled some homosexual military personnel to avoid the restrictions and that penalized others in spite of an absence of security or psychological problems. The official changes in policy do appear to have provided increased opportunities for homosexual soldiers in the IDF, and a greater openness among gay and lesbian soldiers in part reflects these changes. Given the central role of the IDF in Israelis' lives, the full inclusion of sexual minorities in the military is viewed as a fulfillment of the guiding ethos of joint defense of the nation. Representatives of gay rights organizations and scholars suggest, however, that more can be done to bring homosexuals fully into the circle of citizen-soldiers.

[Chappy]

http://www.gaymilitary.ucsb.edu/Publica ... elPub3.htm