National Service Debate

[chrisfow]

the magistrate gave him one last chance join the Army or go to a young offenders institute, he chose the Army and he changed his attitude.

That is absolutly apalling, treating the Army on a par with prison. It's a good thing that they no longer do that I my opinion.

While I agree with the general mood that National Service would be good for the makeup of society (desperatly trying not to say "the yoof of today" ) It would be very bad indeed for our armed forces. A massive number of people who don't want to be there, the staff parades would be even large than they currently are! Also, when it comes to being deployed, as a taxpayer I want the guys doing the fighting to be professionals, and as a future serviceman I want the guy next to me to be a volunteer rather than a conscript.

[Tab]

Well Spannerman, I was National Serviceman, and the chap next to me had nothing to worry about, as far me doing the right thing. As far as we were concerned you did the right thing to survive, it was the Regulars that were problem they had a life time in forces and did not have a lot to live for.

[Chameleon]

Then is then and now is now. Tab was there and knows what he is talking about. Many of the N.S. men had elder brothers or other relatives in WW2, also had been in the Blitz. N.S. was a bit inconvenient, but in general, the purpose was understood. It was to provide a pool of trained men, in case of emergency. Some might say with tongue in cheek that N.S. was how to maintain an Empire at minimum cost to the Govt.

As far as the Royal Marines was concerned, they trained their N.S. men to a very high standard. When the crunch came it made no difference whether it was an N.S. man or a regular alongside you. As for the man alongside me, sadly that was the last sunrise he ever saw.

Chameleon.

[MrMitty]

1. MOD cannot equip the men/women we have now.

2. Its mentally tough on anyone to go to war i doubt that I need to explain to some on here the feelings one gets when you have seen conflict up close. Chuck in someone who does not want to be there and just wait for the turn to crime/social problems when they go civvy.

3. It would be shocking PR for any government, governments rely on good PR to stay in power.

4. It sounds like some people would like to see the "yoof" as they are called cleared off the streets and told to paint the grass green, social problems will still be there when they go home.

5. Would members of these forums really want to see their sons go off to war, I have been to war and I would never send my sons. Never.

6. Its good to see that there are some keen young guys on here who want to join up. But I get the feeling that they think the forces are a "cool" place to be. Mark my words the training to become a marine/para is hard but it DOES NOT prepare you for what you will see when you go to war, nothing and nobody can, and in our current climate it is likely to be FIBUA and amongst the locals. Not at all nice.

[lew]

This turned into a really interesting thread.

Personally I think we shouldn’t force my generation into the armed forces if they didn’t want to be there, my reason is this.

Tabs generation and my generation have only one thing in common, we were born in the same country, I wouldn’t want a N.S man from my generation next to me, as I know my generation are for the most part a bunch of hyped up tossers who need a kicking every now and again to sort their attitudes out.

People who are in the armed forces now want to be there, but if you stuck a load of idiots off the street in what do you think would happen, they wouldn’t do as they were told just because someone with a chevron on their arm told them to.

We can’t equip our soldiers properly with out having to deal with a load of fat spotty wasters as well.

Personally, if the kids on the streets are causing grief, lock up their parents and send the kids to live in a Juvenal prison and then see what happens.


lew

[Chameleon]

Lew,

This is only my personal opinion. Conscription was universal (except for N.I) As a result an NS Squad commencing training would contain a wide range of types. There would be every thing ranging from your idiots off the streets to Public school boys. The only common thing was their age.

Discipline was strict but fair. There was no bullying by instructors. They set high standards and we did our best to achieve them. We were expcted to maintain our uniforms, equipment, weapons, and accommodation to a high standard, but we did not have to do useless things like painting rocks white.

By the time the squad passed out of basic training there was a different attitude. It would be true to say that they all took a pride in what they were, and would continue to do so.

As for not being able to equip modern soldiers, It was ever thus. We were equiped with obsolete weapons left over from WW2. I think that when the crunch came, they had to requisition old LVTs from amusement parks and quickly spray them grey. Someone told me that they had obtained a crew for an LST, put back into service, from the Malta RNDQs, but I am not sure on that. However I suspect that the cooks on my LST could easily have come from there.

As for stuff like body armour we never knew it existed, and although we had sprayed our helmets desert colour in Malta, I never wore mine again after its repaint. We scrapped in our berets. So you work with the equipment you have. At least the 24 hour ration packs were good, and there was no rubbish in them. The main thing is to have an attitude of mind, to achieve the objectives you are given. The other thing is that you can rely on the man next to you, be he a regular or NS.

Chameleon

[Spence]

I believe in Germany they have a system in place where any male aged 18 is required to serve for roughly 18 months in either the military or community work. This is a good idea because it gives the young person a choice, to some degree, on how to spend 18 months (not very long in the grand scheme of things). This would mean (in theory) that those people who want to join up as a professional soldier and make a career of the military can do, as well as those who aren't really sure but hink they might have a crack at it, and even those who never thought about joining the military ever but do it for 18 months because it is better than litter picking or whatever (please take no offence litter pickers, you are the salt of the earth). As long as standards are kept high there should be no problem.

This would also sort those youngsters my age (16) straight who hate disciplin and taking orders but still claim if this country went to war they would be the first to sign up.

-Spence

[J J]

I'm from Germany.it's 9 months national service.they're thinkin' of getting rid of it.
personally i'm against n.s anyway. i think an army is much more effective if the soldiers "want to be there".the thing is,in the "Bundeswehr" you just do your basic training,then you get put in some boring office,takin' phone calls all day(or some other stupid job).the first 3 months are probably a very good experience,the rest is really a waist of time!
some of my friends done their apprenticeship and applied for longer service straight away.you then start at a higher rank after training("stabsunteroffizier",i think...)which also means more money.

[Maroon]

In S.A they used to (I'm not sure if they still do) have N.S. and you could end up in the Police or the Forces.

National Service I think is a good idea in the sense that it would give every 18 yr old a chance to make a difference to their lives. They wouldn't have to serve with front line regiments to start with, but if they decide that maybe they want to make more of it they have the option to transfer whEn their N.S. has finished.

As for the logistical side, it's got to be better than giving them Dole money for sitting on the arses week in week out...

[mike_B]

Chrisfow - your second post is 100% correct. We don't have the money, resources or desire to instigate National Service. It will decimate the repuatation of our Army, and pay a huge blow to the British economy.

Secondly - You don't start National Service to 'deal with the wasters' - it just makes no feasible sense whatsoever. In the Fifties it was needed - there is no need for it now.

So this all begs the question - why did you start this 'debate'? It wont happen (unless an unforseen 'event' takes place), it makes no sense to reinstate it - and there are far more important issues to deal with.

The answer to 'sorting out the youth of today' lies in schools and Local Authorities - Youth clucs, the police etc.

However what I have always advocated is a greater use of recruitment schemes in run-down areas like London Council estates. Where the army will take young'ns on a course, or show them what it's like to be in the military. They can see the army offers them security, pay and a good life. This scheme is already happening on a small scale - but I think this should be greatly expanded upon - as the results are very good.

Mike

[TriggerHappyTv]

Personally I'm for the reinstatement of conscription, if you compare modern day britain with 1960s britain, you'll see our country is slowly destroying itself.

N.S. Would solve many of the major problems if they were channeled into the right directions.

We're currently under threat from possible terrorists attack, now currently we cannot manage a major attack with the amount of trained professionals in potential targets (London etc etc). So if we have people who have been trained, they can be used to help provide support, similar to the National Guard they have in the US.

As i read in the other posts, where would the money come from? Well I believe the Government have all these programs in place trying to solve the Yob culture problem, and i'm sure there's other programs that could be axed as well, as they do nothing but waste cash.

[Tab]

TriggerHappy, Why should the Forces be the dumping ground of every lay a bout and misfit in the Country, now if this happened just how many men would consider this a suitable career to be in the Forces. Also if the Government could direct people into the Forces then would the pay scales stay the same. Now when I was called up I did the same job as a regular soldier I fought the same battles and took the same risks for about a third of his pay. I was dragged out of a good job to play soldier, also there where young men who should never have been the Army getting called up and the effect on some of them was fatal. Now if you called them up just where would you house them all, or you could put them under canvas on the Yorkshire Moors. Also would you call up all the young women as well lets face it in this case I would support the Equal Opportunities board on this occasion.

[TriggerHappyTv]

I see your point, but there are many reasons for and against the reinstatement of conscription, i was recently reading from the minutes of the house of commons that they discussed conscription and it was an unended debat. It has many benefical points to help the country as long as the role is for defence and not for attack. Say the country had a dirty bomb explosion..just now we wouldnt have the resources/man power to deal with the area effected. BUT if these people all had some form of training of 'what to do' in this situation it could be done. A N.S. although we think of it as a military organisation (true thats what it was) but it can be changed to fit in with 21st century britain. Teach discipline, survival techniques etc etc basically non combat techniques, and make them help the community.

[Tab]

TriggerHappy, Much of what you say could be done by a greater use of the CCF at schools, they could get the same sort of instructions and lectures and it could always be made an A level Course. So why then drag a person out of a good job to spend two years playing at being soldier, for a fraction of the pay of a Regular Soldier.

[TriggerHappyTv]

Because much of the people who need the training and discipline..hardly ever went to school or currently go to. The training could be worked on the same principles of the TA, like 21 days work a year etc etc.