Lets hope they grasp the bull by the horns rather than tiptoing around the town asking nicely if people would mind if they searched their houses
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Iraqi Murderers
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bootneck
- Guest
At the end of the day, if Bush and Blair hadn`t have been so eager to take saddam out, non of this would be happening right now, we all know why they went in, OIL, its as simple as that. There are no, and never have been any weapons of mass destruction for years now. saddam was Tossing George and Tony off, playing them for the fools they are, but in the end, it backfired, and saddam got burnt, he gave it all up, to be the big man, and what is he now? a prisoner. But, when he was in power, his people suffered, and suffered badly, but was it worse then, than it is now?
was it all worth it in the end?
was it all worth it in the end?
Several months ago, the optimist in me hoped that Iraq could become a model Islamic state in the Middle-East. The miracles of post-war Japan
and Germany echoed and the possibility of a modern free democratic
state the envy of its neighbours glimmered. But that image is quickly receding. That possibility is disappearing because of the partisan mismanagement and dithering by the nation which precipitated the invasion in the first place. As time goes by, the image we instead see in the future is an even more fractured region torn apart by inter-religious strife and petty bickering with an increasingly beleagured and shunned US
administration becoming more and more like the Soviet presence in Afghanistan. I am guessing the next month or so will be particularly pivotal as the coalition have to deal with increasing insurgency and many more different groups becoming more and more dissatisfied with their lot. Each incident and how it is dealt with acts as an accelerant with ineviteable knock on effects. The coalition itself may start to fracture as various nations withdraw their own military, eventually leaving the US and UK isolated and with their backs only to each other.
I'm hoping it doesnt come to that, I hope the UN reenters the country, restraint is shown on all sides, stability prevails, and wise decisions are made about the domestic longterm structure of Iraq and that coalition support stays strong and countries realize they have to see this through.
Making good of Iraq is a long term investment. Stability in the region is a worldwide necessity. The consequences of botching the job are unbearable to consider.
T
and Germany echoed and the possibility of a modern free democratic
state the envy of its neighbours glimmered. But that image is quickly receding. That possibility is disappearing because of the partisan mismanagement and dithering by the nation which precipitated the invasion in the first place. As time goes by, the image we instead see in the future is an even more fractured region torn apart by inter-religious strife and petty bickering with an increasingly beleagured and shunned US
administration becoming more and more like the Soviet presence in Afghanistan. I am guessing the next month or so will be particularly pivotal as the coalition have to deal with increasing insurgency and many more different groups becoming more and more dissatisfied with their lot. Each incident and how it is dealt with acts as an accelerant with ineviteable knock on effects. The coalition itself may start to fracture as various nations withdraw their own military, eventually leaving the US and UK isolated and with their backs only to each other.
I'm hoping it doesnt come to that, I hope the UN reenters the country, restraint is shown on all sides, stability prevails, and wise decisions are made about the domestic longterm structure of Iraq and that coalition support stays strong and countries realize they have to see this through.
Making good of Iraq is a long term investment. Stability in the region is a worldwide necessity. The consequences of botching the job are unbearable to consider.
T
bootneck wrote:At the end of the day, if Bush and Blair hadn`t have been so eager to take saddam out, non of this would be happening right now, we all know why they went in, OIL, its as simple as that. There are no, and never have been any weapons of mass destruction for years now. saddam was Tossing George and Tony off, playing them for the fools they are, but in the end, it backfired, and saddam got burnt, he gave it all up, to be the big man, and what is he now? a prisoner. But, when he was in power, his people suffered, and suffered badly, but was it worse then, than it is now?
was it all worth it in the end?
"He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool;
and he who dares not, is a slave." ---William Drummond.
and he who dares not, is a slave." ---William Drummond.
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Frank S.
- Guest
http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/2004_04 ... 2489325803
[emphasis added by me]
Command Decision
The Washington Post is reporting that an operational plan to clean up Fallujah is pretty well written up. In an article headed 2 U.S. Troops Killed; Fallujah Plan Readied, it says:
Lt. Gen. James T. Conway, the commander of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, is coordinating military plans to reestablish control in Fallujah, a top U.S. military official said in Baghdad. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Conway also will oversee a "top to bottom" review of the conduct of Iraqi security forces and local officials during and after the killings of the civilians. The Marines replaced the U.S. Army's 82nd Airborne Division in western Iraq on March 24.
"At first blush, one has to ask: How does this happen in a city of that size, which does have a police force and an Iraqi Civil Defense Corps presence?" said the official. "We are going to be looking at all organizations inside Fallujah that have responsibility and authority . . . and anyone who has a leadership position inside that city." The official added, "The stakes are too high, the outcomes too important, to give anyone the luxury to sit on the fence in Fallujah." Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the top military spokesman in Iraq, called for residents of Fallujah to identify those responsible for the killings. "I think they'll make the right choice and turn these people over to us," he told reporters in Baghdad. "If not, we're prepared to go in and find them."
The level at which the response is being coordinated gives away the possible size of the operation. General Conway commands a force of 25,000 men, with about a division's worth of infantry (9 battalions) and supporting arms, so the operation will probably involve more than a brigade. The Fallujah incident is also calling into question the reliability of Iraqi police forces not only in Fallujah, but probably throughout Iraq. The question is whether the police owe their fundamental allegiance to the new Iraqi government or to the local chieftains.
An ABC news article suggests that the contractors, who were escorting a convoy of food through the area, fell into a prepared ambush -- arranged for the media to witness -- an act impossible without the connivance of the local Iraqi police and security forces.
Iraqi insurgents had set up several ambush points around Fallujah, the city west of Baghdad that is a hotbed of anti-American sentiment, and had stocked them with gasoline on the morning of the attack, intelligence sources told ABCNEWS. Some townspeople had been warned to stay inside.
"This was clearly an attack to get maximum media exposure," said one source.
The four contractors left the Iraqi city of Taji on Tuesday to escort a convoy of several flatbed trucks full of goods. The plan was to spend the night at a U.S. base called TQ, west of Fallujah. Instead, the convoy ended up at a base east of Fallujah. On Wednesday morning, with two contractors in the lead SUV and two others in an SUV at the rear of the flatbeds, a decision was made to drive through Fallujah. Each of the security guards was armed with an assault rifle and an automatic pistol. The contractors also had satellite communications on board.
At around 8 a.m., the convoy approached a traffic circle on highway 10 going into the city. According to intelligence sources, eyewitnesses say a vehicle full of gunmen pulled in front of the lead SUV, while occupants from several other vehicles fired Kalashnikov machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades. The contractors were killed, but the truck drivers escaped by driving away. Another vehicle full of attackers then pulled up and dragged two of the bodies out of the SUVs, doused them with gasoline, set them on fire, and dragged them behind vehicles.
The security contractors obviously drove through Fallujah as a last resort. They had planned to avoid it, but caught on the wrong side of the river, they decided to cross as quickly as possible. They probably assumed that there could be no fixed ambush positions in the town itself, certainly not in so prominent a place as the junction of Highway 10 without the Iraqi police being aware of it. Even so, the contractors deployed as best they could with their limited resources, and it perhaps saved the rest of the convoy. They drove into a classic L shaped ambush and took fire from ahead and from one flank in the kill zone from automatic weapons and RPGs.
It is entirely possible and more than probable that the contractors coordinated their move through Fallujah with the Iraqi security officials. And it is in this light that we can understand Conway's brief to "oversee a 'top to bottom' review of the conduct of Iraqi security forces and local officials during and after the killings of the civilians". Readers will recall that the several police stations were destroyed in Fallujah some months ago. It is conceivable that Anti-Coalition Forces then followed up this intimidation with offers of money, essentially hammering home the message that cooperation with Americans was a losing business proposition. General Conway apparently intends to demonstrate the reverse, or at least establish that he can deal out far more fearsome punishment than the Anti-coalition warlords.
One cannot but have some momentary sympathy for the Iraqi cops who are now between the hammer and the anvil. It may have been a mistake to leave this center of anti-coalition power unbroken and to rely on the local law enforcement to clean it up. Rather than the police controlling the local warlords, the warlords ended up controlling the police. The impending operation must now rectify the mistake and smash the warlords so thoroughly that any who see the light of day will end up selling pencils out of a tin cup. Every Iraqi policeman who collaborated with these thugs should be punished severely. The real trick will be to rip apart the structure of Fallujah without causing too many civilian casualties. It will be a hard, but as the Washington Post source said, "The stakes are too high, the outcomes too important, to give anyone the luxury to sit on the fence in Fallujah". The speed with which the operational plan has been drafted means that the choices long avoided have been faced. Now the Muslim holy day of Friday has come to an end and a waxing moon will soon rise over a Saturday night in Fallujah.
Addendum
Anyone who can read a map is invited to look at Global Security's 1:10,000 aerial photograph of Fallujah. Some quick observations. The built up section of the town is about 2.5 miles on each side and covers about 6.5 square miles. My guess (just a guess) is that any of the perps who didn't make it out of town in the first few minutes of the mutilation attack on the contractors have split up and are trying to walk out through ratlines of sympathizers by going farmhouse to farmhouse until they can clear the cordon. There are two problems with this. The first is that traveling strangers stick out in a rural community and are vulnerable to snitches looking to make a quick buck. The second and far more severe problem is that ratline movement can shift only a handful of people. The great majority of bad guys, especially senior men who can travel only by vehicle, are still in Fallujah.
The obvious approach is use the river, the clear demarcations to the north and east as the basic anvil. The river, railway and the eastern highway (Highway 10?) are naturally open fields of observation which are hard to cross. The area south shades into a suburb called Hamid Kanna and a marshy area with a prominent hill in the southeast corner. The hammer then, might go from the south to north, taking the high ground, and going through less built-up area, possibly picking up ratline exfiltrators in the process until the east-west main road through Fallujah is reached (the one leading to the bridge). This is a natural phase line to pause until the area south of the main road is processed. The northern section of the town is unfortunately for the defenders laid out in grid with roads intersecting at right angles. Americans may not go down these roads at all but through the walls of houses and come at the defenders from any direction. However, because the roads can be swept by fire they will work in the American favor by isolating one neighborhood from another. The Marines will gobble up Fallujah in detail and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Any defender smarter than a cockroach will see that a conventional defense is impossible. Their goals must therefore be more modest. One may be to cause as many American deaths as possible by planting mines or IEDs wherever they can along approaches. But that will only delay, not alter the result. The other may be to create as many civilian casualties as possible. An example of this would be for Anti-coalition forces to set the whole town ablaze and exploit the pandemonium. However, if the Marines exert only gradual pressure, and use neighbors or Iraqi police from outside Fallujah to guide other neighbors into processing areas, the defenders will never be presented with a clear opportunity to precipitate a crisis. Once the Marines get the momentum of processing going, the tribal leaders will lose control and the whole structure will start to crumble. The Marines can exploit their physical domination by offering clemency or even rewards to those who rat out on other perps. The inner bastion of Fallujah will collapse like a termite-eaten post as each man looks out for himself.
There is another possibility. Cornered Islamists in Pakistan and Mindanao have historically used the counter-siege to get them out of tight spots. This involves staging an attack either on Marine rear lines or making a huge bomb attack on another Iraqi city to force a diversion of resources. But Iraq is already inured to attacks like this and they cannot significantly damage Marine lines of communication to a useful degree. What works in Pakistan or the Philippines will not work against the Marines.
The wildcard is the press. The Anti-coalition forces used the media to start this game and they are doubtless thinking of ways to use it to either save their hides or finish it, politically at least, in their favor. Unfortunately, the Bush administration has everything to lose and nothing to gain by backing down, and will persevere, come hell or high water.
Cleaning out Fallujah will be a hard and dangerous operation requiring a lot of skill and good command judgment. There was a good reason why the Marines just didn't barrel into town with all guns blazing on the day the contractors were attacked.
[emphasis added by me]
Command Decision
The Washington Post is reporting that an operational plan to clean up Fallujah is pretty well written up. In an article headed 2 U.S. Troops Killed; Fallujah Plan Readied, it says:
Lt. Gen. James T. Conway, the commander of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, is coordinating military plans to reestablish control in Fallujah, a top U.S. military official said in Baghdad. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Conway also will oversee a "top to bottom" review of the conduct of Iraqi security forces and local officials during and after the killings of the civilians. The Marines replaced the U.S. Army's 82nd Airborne Division in western Iraq on March 24.
"At first blush, one has to ask: How does this happen in a city of that size, which does have a police force and an Iraqi Civil Defense Corps presence?" said the official. "We are going to be looking at all organizations inside Fallujah that have responsibility and authority . . . and anyone who has a leadership position inside that city." The official added, "The stakes are too high, the outcomes too important, to give anyone the luxury to sit on the fence in Fallujah." Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the top military spokesman in Iraq, called for residents of Fallujah to identify those responsible for the killings. "I think they'll make the right choice and turn these people over to us," he told reporters in Baghdad. "If not, we're prepared to go in and find them."
The level at which the response is being coordinated gives away the possible size of the operation. General Conway commands a force of 25,000 men, with about a division's worth of infantry (9 battalions) and supporting arms, so the operation will probably involve more than a brigade. The Fallujah incident is also calling into question the reliability of Iraqi police forces not only in Fallujah, but probably throughout Iraq. The question is whether the police owe their fundamental allegiance to the new Iraqi government or to the local chieftains.
An ABC news article suggests that the contractors, who were escorting a convoy of food through the area, fell into a prepared ambush -- arranged for the media to witness -- an act impossible without the connivance of the local Iraqi police and security forces.
Iraqi insurgents had set up several ambush points around Fallujah, the city west of Baghdad that is a hotbed of anti-American sentiment, and had stocked them with gasoline on the morning of the attack, intelligence sources told ABCNEWS. Some townspeople had been warned to stay inside.
"This was clearly an attack to get maximum media exposure," said one source.
The four contractors left the Iraqi city of Taji on Tuesday to escort a convoy of several flatbed trucks full of goods. The plan was to spend the night at a U.S. base called TQ, west of Fallujah. Instead, the convoy ended up at a base east of Fallujah. On Wednesday morning, with two contractors in the lead SUV and two others in an SUV at the rear of the flatbeds, a decision was made to drive through Fallujah. Each of the security guards was armed with an assault rifle and an automatic pistol. The contractors also had satellite communications on board.
At around 8 a.m., the convoy approached a traffic circle on highway 10 going into the city. According to intelligence sources, eyewitnesses say a vehicle full of gunmen pulled in front of the lead SUV, while occupants from several other vehicles fired Kalashnikov machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades. The contractors were killed, but the truck drivers escaped by driving away. Another vehicle full of attackers then pulled up and dragged two of the bodies out of the SUVs, doused them with gasoline, set them on fire, and dragged them behind vehicles.
The security contractors obviously drove through Fallujah as a last resort. They had planned to avoid it, but caught on the wrong side of the river, they decided to cross as quickly as possible. They probably assumed that there could be no fixed ambush positions in the town itself, certainly not in so prominent a place as the junction of Highway 10 without the Iraqi police being aware of it. Even so, the contractors deployed as best they could with their limited resources, and it perhaps saved the rest of the convoy. They drove into a classic L shaped ambush and took fire from ahead and from one flank in the kill zone from automatic weapons and RPGs.
It is entirely possible and more than probable that the contractors coordinated their move through Fallujah with the Iraqi security officials. And it is in this light that we can understand Conway's brief to "oversee a 'top to bottom' review of the conduct of Iraqi security forces and local officials during and after the killings of the civilians". Readers will recall that the several police stations were destroyed in Fallujah some months ago. It is conceivable that Anti-Coalition Forces then followed up this intimidation with offers of money, essentially hammering home the message that cooperation with Americans was a losing business proposition. General Conway apparently intends to demonstrate the reverse, or at least establish that he can deal out far more fearsome punishment than the Anti-coalition warlords.
One cannot but have some momentary sympathy for the Iraqi cops who are now between the hammer and the anvil. It may have been a mistake to leave this center of anti-coalition power unbroken and to rely on the local law enforcement to clean it up. Rather than the police controlling the local warlords, the warlords ended up controlling the police. The impending operation must now rectify the mistake and smash the warlords so thoroughly that any who see the light of day will end up selling pencils out of a tin cup. Every Iraqi policeman who collaborated with these thugs should be punished severely. The real trick will be to rip apart the structure of Fallujah without causing too many civilian casualties. It will be a hard, but as the Washington Post source said, "The stakes are too high, the outcomes too important, to give anyone the luxury to sit on the fence in Fallujah". The speed with which the operational plan has been drafted means that the choices long avoided have been faced. Now the Muslim holy day of Friday has come to an end and a waxing moon will soon rise over a Saturday night in Fallujah.
Addendum
Anyone who can read a map is invited to look at Global Security's 1:10,000 aerial photograph of Fallujah. Some quick observations. The built up section of the town is about 2.5 miles on each side and covers about 6.5 square miles. My guess (just a guess) is that any of the perps who didn't make it out of town in the first few minutes of the mutilation attack on the contractors have split up and are trying to walk out through ratlines of sympathizers by going farmhouse to farmhouse until they can clear the cordon. There are two problems with this. The first is that traveling strangers stick out in a rural community and are vulnerable to snitches looking to make a quick buck. The second and far more severe problem is that ratline movement can shift only a handful of people. The great majority of bad guys, especially senior men who can travel only by vehicle, are still in Fallujah.
The obvious approach is use the river, the clear demarcations to the north and east as the basic anvil. The river, railway and the eastern highway (Highway 10?) are naturally open fields of observation which are hard to cross. The area south shades into a suburb called Hamid Kanna and a marshy area with a prominent hill in the southeast corner. The hammer then, might go from the south to north, taking the high ground, and going through less built-up area, possibly picking up ratline exfiltrators in the process until the east-west main road through Fallujah is reached (the one leading to the bridge). This is a natural phase line to pause until the area south of the main road is processed. The northern section of the town is unfortunately for the defenders laid out in grid with roads intersecting at right angles. Americans may not go down these roads at all but through the walls of houses and come at the defenders from any direction. However, because the roads can be swept by fire they will work in the American favor by isolating one neighborhood from another. The Marines will gobble up Fallujah in detail and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Any defender smarter than a cockroach will see that a conventional defense is impossible. Their goals must therefore be more modest. One may be to cause as many American deaths as possible by planting mines or IEDs wherever they can along approaches. But that will only delay, not alter the result. The other may be to create as many civilian casualties as possible. An example of this would be for Anti-coalition forces to set the whole town ablaze and exploit the pandemonium. However, if the Marines exert only gradual pressure, and use neighbors or Iraqi police from outside Fallujah to guide other neighbors into processing areas, the defenders will never be presented with a clear opportunity to precipitate a crisis. Once the Marines get the momentum of processing going, the tribal leaders will lose control and the whole structure will start to crumble. The Marines can exploit their physical domination by offering clemency or even rewards to those who rat out on other perps. The inner bastion of Fallujah will collapse like a termite-eaten post as each man looks out for himself.
There is another possibility. Cornered Islamists in Pakistan and Mindanao have historically used the counter-siege to get them out of tight spots. This involves staging an attack either on Marine rear lines or making a huge bomb attack on another Iraqi city to force a diversion of resources. But Iraq is already inured to attacks like this and they cannot significantly damage Marine lines of communication to a useful degree. What works in Pakistan or the Philippines will not work against the Marines.
The wildcard is the press. The Anti-coalition forces used the media to start this game and they are doubtless thinking of ways to use it to either save their hides or finish it, politically at least, in their favor. Unfortunately, the Bush administration has everything to lose and nothing to gain by backing down, and will persevere, come hell or high water.
Cleaning out Fallujah will be a hard and dangerous operation requiring a lot of skill and good command judgment. There was a good reason why the Marines just didn't barrel into town with all guns blazing on the day the contractors were attacked.
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Guest
- Guest
US offensive to 'pacify' Falluja
BBC News Online
Hundreds of US and Iraqi troops have surrounded the city
US troops have launched a big offensive against Iraqi insurgents in the Sunni flashpoint town of Falluja.
They have sealed off the town where four Americans were killed and their bodies mutilated by a mob last week.
Unconfirmed reports say several people were killed when a US warplane dropped bombs on a residential area of the town after a mortar attack on troops (What did I say about it turning into the West Bank?
The US command has vowed to "pacify" Falluja, where four civilian contractors were killed on Wednesday.
Falluja lies in the heartland of resistance to the US-led occupation.
Extended operation
US troops closed off entrances to Falluja with earth barricades ahead of the planned operation, code named "Vigilant Resolve".
About 1,200 marines and two battalions of Iraqi security forces were poised to enter the city to arrest suspected insurgents, Associated Press news agency quoted Lt James Vanzant of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force as saying.
"The city is surrounded," Mr Vanzant said.
"It's an extended operation. We want to make a very precise approach to this. ... We are looking for the bad guys in town."
US aircraft were reported to have struck a residential area in the city, killing many people according to witnesses.
There has been no confirmation by the US-led coalition.
The operation was to last several days, the US military said.
BBC News Online
Hundreds of US and Iraqi troops have surrounded the city
US troops have launched a big offensive against Iraqi insurgents in the Sunni flashpoint town of Falluja.
They have sealed off the town where four Americans were killed and their bodies mutilated by a mob last week.
Unconfirmed reports say several people were killed when a US warplane dropped bombs on a residential area of the town after a mortar attack on troops (What did I say about it turning into the West Bank?
The US command has vowed to "pacify" Falluja, where four civilian contractors were killed on Wednesday.
Falluja lies in the heartland of resistance to the US-led occupation.
Extended operation
US troops closed off entrances to Falluja with earth barricades ahead of the planned operation, code named "Vigilant Resolve".
About 1,200 marines and two battalions of Iraqi security forces were poised to enter the city to arrest suspected insurgents, Associated Press news agency quoted Lt James Vanzant of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force as saying.
"The city is surrounded," Mr Vanzant said.
"It's an extended operation. We want to make a very precise approach to this. ... We are looking for the bad guys in town."
US aircraft were reported to have struck a residential area in the city, killing many people according to witnesses.
There has been no confirmation by the US-led coalition.
The operation was to last several days, the US military said.
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Guest
- Guest
Arrest order for Iraq Shia cleric
The US-led coalition in Iraq says an arrest warrant has been issued for radical cleric Moqtada Sadr.
A coalition spokesman told a news conference in Baghdad that the warrant had been issued in connection with the murder of a rival cleric last year.
The statement came on the second day of violent anti-coalition protests across Iraq by Mr Sadr's supporters.
US helicopter gunships targeted militia members loyal to Mr Sadr in the mainly Shia district of al-Shuala in Baghdad.
I cant believe they're seriously trying to take out a guy with such a large flock, cant they see what'll happen? If the majority Shia take up arms against the coalition then it'll be all out war. Will America be prepared to stay the course? Some Republican senators are already suggesting that the June 30th deadline for handing over power and pulling out is premature but Bush isnt having any of it, hes only worried about it affecting his re-election campaign. Man what a mess. Democracy? You're having a laugh!
The US-led coalition in Iraq says an arrest warrant has been issued for radical cleric Moqtada Sadr.
A coalition spokesman told a news conference in Baghdad that the warrant had been issued in connection with the murder of a rival cleric last year.
The statement came on the second day of violent anti-coalition protests across Iraq by Mr Sadr's supporters.
US helicopter gunships targeted militia members loyal to Mr Sadr in the mainly Shia district of al-Shuala in Baghdad.
I cant believe they're seriously trying to take out a guy with such a large flock, cant they see what'll happen? If the majority Shia take up arms against the coalition then it'll be all out war. Will America be prepared to stay the course? Some Republican senators are already suggesting that the June 30th deadline for handing over power and pulling out is premature but Bush isnt having any of it, hes only worried about it affecting his re-election campaign. Man what a mess. Democracy? You're having a laugh!
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Guest
- Guest
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Tom Dickson
- Member
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue 15 Apr, 2003 10:00 am
- Location: Germany
I posted something, but I don't need the drama. I see you've got the initial reports, good. Hey Frank this is to you, do you think Blackwater is just going to let this go? A little bird told me 8 contractors took on a militia on sunday in Najef. Score was something like Vistitors 39 Home zip/0.
:laola: GO TEAM! 
:laola: GO TEAM!
Way to stay motivated! Gets tough, quit(Very UN btw), why not? We in America aren't doing another Somalia. You mutilate and drag bodies, you have to be punished. I bet the Vistiting Team get's the culprits soon.I think it is time that we found the WMD in Iraq ,the first in Falluja then in Bagdad (sadam city) but only when all the coalition troops are home
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
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harry hackedoff
- Member
- Posts: 14415
- Joined: Tue 19 Feb, 2002 12:00 am
Last year, most of us on here supported our troops in Iraq. We didn’t support the spurious reasons for sending them, however.
The whole Op had a “make it up, as you go along” feel, and this became more apparent as the aggressive phase completed.
There is no active overall plan. There is no programme of sequenced events, which started on D1 and ends on June 30 with happy smiley Iraqis waving thankfully as the good guys ride off into the sunset. One charmless cleric spake thus, “ Who are these Americans, what do they know. The British have been dealing in Iraq since the twenties, they know our ways” Elmer is doing it his way; he isn’t listening to, or is ignoring British advice. Fair enuffski, it’s his ball game. There are two bird(I think) Colonels running around Badgag and Fallujah,from the 82nd Airborne, ooorrrraaagggh.. Named Ribena and Drinkwine, I kid you not. These two gents featured largely in a recent Aus/Kermit documentary, which may as well have been called “How to go from bad to worse” That is what their input amounts to. Interviews with the two birds were cut with contemporaneous interviews with the local tribal bigwigs. Every single time these guys thought they had made a step forwards, guess what?
Last May, Dubya said “weez wun, yessirree” or similar. Mostly, the Americans and British were welcomed as Hope for a better Tomorrow. Things have improved dramatically since then to the happy state of affairs we have today.
There’s no effing way in the world that Iraq will be “ controlled by Iraqis” on 30 June.
This is not criticism of the blokes from both sides of the pond, or Allies in the Coalition of the Gormless. To put Elmer’s` finest in positions for which they aren’t trained and have no experience is criminal. Ribena and Drinkwine are trying their best. It simply isn’t good enough
By the nature of the occupation, there will be other “atrocities”
I’ve said elsewhere what my solution would be, i.e. turn off the town. No traffic in or out, no water, no sewage, no electricity, until the leaders and tribal big boys start to come alongside. My point is that mostly, they were alongside, last May.
Now, to other matters and I write this in a spirit of harmony. Young White boy has a certain way about him, a certain charm. This is often taken by a few members to be because he is a redneck cousin-shagging rascist bigot. Anyhow, enough of his good points. I`m not Whiteys` apologist and I`m not here to stand up for him, he’s big enough and daft enough to do that himself. As a Moderator, I have read and re-read this post from page one. So much of it is open to interpretation. The trouble with forums is that things are often written to mean one thing and read to mean something else. This easily leads to preconceptions about what a poster has written and then we end up with open abuse. If we spoke to each other face to face, this wouldn’t happen. Spanners, can I ask you to re-read the responses you made with that in mind? Same with you Artist. Ask yourselves ”Have I read this correctly or am I jumping ever so slightly, to conclusions” Bearing in mind that Whiteboy knew one of those men at Fallujah, then perhaps his emotive outbursts won’t seem so unreasonable.
As for you Whiteboy, we’re going to take a walk down the BV tracks, to watch the Aurora, and I`ll be reading you`re horoscope. PM inbound
The whole Op had a “make it up, as you go along” feel, and this became more apparent as the aggressive phase completed.
There is no active overall plan. There is no programme of sequenced events, which started on D1 and ends on June 30 with happy smiley Iraqis waving thankfully as the good guys ride off into the sunset. One charmless cleric spake thus, “ Who are these Americans, what do they know. The British have been dealing in Iraq since the twenties, they know our ways” Elmer is doing it his way; he isn’t listening to, or is ignoring British advice. Fair enuffski, it’s his ball game. There are two bird(I think) Colonels running around Badgag and Fallujah,from the 82nd Airborne, ooorrrraaagggh.. Named Ribena and Drinkwine, I kid you not. These two gents featured largely in a recent Aus/Kermit documentary, which may as well have been called “How to go from bad to worse” That is what their input amounts to. Interviews with the two birds were cut with contemporaneous interviews with the local tribal bigwigs. Every single time these guys thought they had made a step forwards, guess what?
Last May, Dubya said “weez wun, yessirree” or similar. Mostly, the Americans and British were welcomed as Hope for a better Tomorrow. Things have improved dramatically since then to the happy state of affairs we have today.
There’s no effing way in the world that Iraq will be “ controlled by Iraqis” on 30 June.
This is not criticism of the blokes from both sides of the pond, or Allies in the Coalition of the Gormless. To put Elmer’s` finest in positions for which they aren’t trained and have no experience is criminal. Ribena and Drinkwine are trying their best. It simply isn’t good enough
By the nature of the occupation, there will be other “atrocities”
I’ve said elsewhere what my solution would be, i.e. turn off the town. No traffic in or out, no water, no sewage, no electricity, until the leaders and tribal big boys start to come alongside. My point is that mostly, they were alongside, last May.
Now, to other matters and I write this in a spirit of harmony. Young White boy has a certain way about him, a certain charm. This is often taken by a few members to be because he is a redneck cousin-shagging rascist bigot. Anyhow, enough of his good points. I`m not Whiteys` apologist and I`m not here to stand up for him, he’s big enough and daft enough to do that himself. As a Moderator, I have read and re-read this post from page one. So much of it is open to interpretation. The trouble with forums is that things are often written to mean one thing and read to mean something else. This easily leads to preconceptions about what a poster has written and then we end up with open abuse. If we spoke to each other face to face, this wouldn’t happen. Spanners, can I ask you to re-read the responses you made with that in mind? Same with you Artist. Ask yourselves ”Have I read this correctly or am I jumping ever so slightly, to conclusions” Bearing in mind that Whiteboy knew one of those men at Fallujah, then perhaps his emotive outbursts won’t seem so unreasonable.
As for you Whiteboy, we’re going to take a walk down the BV tracks, to watch the Aurora, and I`ll be reading you`re horoscope. PM inbound
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Frank S.
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The UN may only be as good as what its members put in it, and that makes me wonder perhaps wrongly whether Iraq's only as good as what the various companies are willing to contribute, paid or not.
In any event, no I don't think Blackwater's going to let it go. They'll maybe do what others (the Custer Battles company for instance) have been doing, set up their own quick reaction force and even go further and develop their own intel shop. That last part in particular would be very tricky though.
In any event, no I don't think Blackwater's going to let it go. They'll maybe do what others (the Custer Battles company for instance) have been doing, set up their own quick reaction force and even go further and develop their own intel shop. That last part in particular would be very tricky though.
On that point I would say the UN is only as good as the mandate set by the security council. 10 Belgian soldiers were murdered when the UN told them not to resist in Rwanada. 800,000 people were masacred when the UN told the Blue boys to stand by. Quite frankly f**k the UN, the rules didn't allow us to stop genocide in Jugoslavia either. This was started by the Coalition and they can calm it down by destroying armed opposition to the peace. The leader has said that if Iraq becomes a proper democracy the attacks will stop, he just wants to set his side with more power when the time comes.Frank S. wrote: The UN may only be as good as what its members put in it
If a man has nothing he is willing to die for then he isn't fit to live.
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Guest
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 608315.stm
US bombards Iraq mosque complex
The US has vowed to "pacify" Falluja - a hotbed of resistance
A US air strike has killed dozens of people inside a mosque compound during heavy fighting in the Iraqi town of Falluja, witnesses say.
Some reports speak of more than 40 dead in the mainly Sunni Muslim town, but that figure has not yet been confirmed.
The incident came as coalition troops fought separate uprisings by both Sunni and Shia Muslims in several towns.
The US military has vowed to "destroy" the militia of radical Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr.
Ukrainian troops have withdrawn from the coalition's local headquarters in the southern town of Kut, which is now under the control of Mr Sadr's Mehdi Army.
More than 100 Iraqis have died in three days of clashes in areas to the west and south of the capital, Baghdad.
At least 30 coalition troops have also been killed, including 12 US marines in a single attack in the town of Ramadi on Tuesday.
Yeah I can really see how well this is going to go down...
US bombards Iraq mosque complex
The US has vowed to "pacify" Falluja - a hotbed of resistance
A US air strike has killed dozens of people inside a mosque compound during heavy fighting in the Iraqi town of Falluja, witnesses say.
Some reports speak of more than 40 dead in the mainly Sunni Muslim town, but that figure has not yet been confirmed.
The incident came as coalition troops fought separate uprisings by both Sunni and Shia Muslims in several towns.
The US military has vowed to "destroy" the militia of radical Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr.
Ukrainian troops have withdrawn from the coalition's local headquarters in the southern town of Kut, which is now under the control of Mr Sadr's Mehdi Army.
More than 100 Iraqis have died in three days of clashes in areas to the west and south of the capital, Baghdad.
At least 30 coalition troops have also been killed, including 12 US marines in a single attack in the town of Ramadi on Tuesday.
Yeah I can really see how well this is going to go down...
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Guest
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When are you blinkered warmongers gona get it into your head that THERE IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION TO WHATS HAPPENING.This was started by the Coalition and they can calm it down by destroying armed opposition to the peace.
Jesus Christ, when a population starts to turn against you you can use as much force as you like but its gonna get you absolutely nowhere.
Wake up!!
