And there was me thinking ethnic cleansing was out of fashion these days. Live'n'learn I guess. . .Maverick wrote:If the protestants in NI want to be a part of Britain then they should move to England or Scotland. London has no claim to any part of Ireland and should have no control of any part of it.
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Northern Ireland
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Dmanton300
- Member
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue 24 Jun, 2003 4:35 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Northern Ireland
The latest and greatest is the new Buccaneer
All full of black boxes and Scimitar gear
But don't worry Kruschev, you're safe 'till the days
The F*****g great bastard is fitted with Speys!
All full of black boxes and Scimitar gear
But don't worry Kruschev, you're safe 'till the days
The F*****g great bastard is fitted with Speys!
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Twenty One
- Member
- Posts: 569
- Joined: Fri 02 May, 2003 10:57 am
- Location: Paisley,Renfrewshire
i'm not going to get involved in the should-we-be-there part of the NI situation, because i don't know enough about it, frankly. but here are the options:
1. british move out of NI and hand it back to ireland for an east/west germany-style reunification
2. british stay where they are
3. british army moves out, UN peace-keepers move in
4. britain invades the rest of ireland.
5. NI becomes state of its own, separate from both britain and ireland.
i prefer #5...
1. british move out of NI and hand it back to ireland for an east/west germany-style reunification
2. british stay where they are
3. british army moves out, UN peace-keepers move in
4. britain invades the rest of ireland.
5. NI becomes state of its own, separate from both britain and ireland.
i prefer #5...
Hello everyone, 
I have always been interested in the political history of Ireland and Northern Ireland because it sort of reminds me about the civil war in Lebanon with the Christians vs Moslems, the Sunnis vs the Shias vs the Druze communities in the 1970s and the Former Yugoslavia conflict.
From the little knowledge I have, I understood that the Catholic community initially welcomed the protection of the British Army but I didn’t understand why they turned against the British soldiers so soon afterwards.
Also, the during the height of tension and violence, why didn’t the UN Peacekeeping troops not come into Northern Ireland, wouldn’t that have helped reduce the casualties among the Catholic, Protestants and British troops ?. Can someone explain this please.
Do you think there should be a truth and reconcilliation committee for all three sides like what had happened in South Africa to help improve the local community and Irish-British relations ?
Do you think it is feasible to have Northern Ireland as an independent state (not part of the Republic of Ireland and not part of the UK) as a compromise among both communities ? The former Czechoslovakia did this after the collapse of communism. (Munky, you beat me to that last question !
)
Thanks
I have always been interested in the political history of Ireland and Northern Ireland because it sort of reminds me about the civil war in Lebanon with the Christians vs Moslems, the Sunnis vs the Shias vs the Druze communities in the 1970s and the Former Yugoslavia conflict.
From the little knowledge I have, I understood that the Catholic community initially welcomed the protection of the British Army but I didn’t understand why they turned against the British soldiers so soon afterwards.
Also, the during the height of tension and violence, why didn’t the UN Peacekeeping troops not come into Northern Ireland, wouldn’t that have helped reduce the casualties among the Catholic, Protestants and British troops ?. Can someone explain this please.
Do you think there should be a truth and reconcilliation committee for all three sides like what had happened in South Africa to help improve the local community and Irish-British relations ?
Do you think it is feasible to have Northern Ireland as an independent state (not part of the Republic of Ireland and not part of the UK) as a compromise among both communities ? The former Czechoslovakia did this after the collapse of communism. (Munky, you beat me to that last question !
)Thanks
Marina
You do ask some difficult questions!!
As far as I recall, initially troops were sent into NI to protect the Catholic community. This was after a Catholic street (Burma St. I think) was burned out by the protestants. I remeber being stationed in Flax St Mill in the Ardoyne and felt very much as if I was there to keep the sides apart, but mainly to protect Catholics. When on guard duty on the main gate a little old lady came up and gave me a packet of cigarettes. She said it was to thank us for being there to help them. I didn't smoke but took them to avoid offending her. Made me feel uncomfortable as she seemed v.poor from the clothes she was wearing.
After that, my guess is Irish political activists saw the protestant attacks as an opportunity to strike against British rule - which was when they saw the troops as an 'occupying force' and began attacking them more regularly.
The UN weren't invited as it was seen as an internal security matter by our govt. For the same reason the UN aren't in Israel in any effective way.
I think a lot of mainland Brits would love NI to declare unilateral independence. But this still wouldn't help the Catholic population who see themselves as Irish in the island of Ireland, which they see as their country. This view is difficult to argue against as the six counties didn't become Northern Ireland until 1922 (I think) before that it as all Ireland.
Of course a NI protestant would argue differently.
You do ask some difficult questions!!
As far as I recall, initially troops were sent into NI to protect the Catholic community. This was after a Catholic street (Burma St. I think) was burned out by the protestants. I remeber being stationed in Flax St Mill in the Ardoyne and felt very much as if I was there to keep the sides apart, but mainly to protect Catholics. When on guard duty on the main gate a little old lady came up and gave me a packet of cigarettes. She said it was to thank us for being there to help them. I didn't smoke but took them to avoid offending her. Made me feel uncomfortable as she seemed v.poor from the clothes she was wearing.
After that, my guess is Irish political activists saw the protestant attacks as an opportunity to strike against British rule - which was when they saw the troops as an 'occupying force' and began attacking them more regularly.
The UN weren't invited as it was seen as an internal security matter by our govt. For the same reason the UN aren't in Israel in any effective way.
I think a lot of mainland Brits would love NI to declare unilateral independence. But this still wouldn't help the Catholic population who see themselves as Irish in the island of Ireland, which they see as their country. This view is difficult to argue against as the six counties didn't become Northern Ireland until 1922 (I think) before that it as all Ireland.
Of course a NI protestant would argue differently.
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chunky from york
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- Joined: Fri 13 Jun, 2003 10:12 am
- Location: york, england
The 'troubles' in NI in 1969 and today are two completely different kettles of fish. Today it has little to do with sectarianism and everything to do with 'Organised Crime'.
It has become a very profitable business for the two side and they do not want a solution, as it would damage cash flow.
It has become a very profitable business for the two side and they do not want a solution, as it would damage cash flow.
Chunky from York
I may not be the man I was, but I was
I may not be the man I was, but I was
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Maverick
- Guest
The line that divides the north and the south is an imaginery line - it exists only in the minds of protestants who don't want to be under Irish rule. Its not only for the NI people to decide whether or not NI remains British - its for all of Ireland to decide. NI is a part of Ireland in the same way that London is a part of England.
er..cromwell, potato famine, Bloody Sunday..
'The NI view the Republic as a hostile neighbour'
er..cromwell, potato famine, Bloody Sunday..
Maverick, if the people of NI want to be part of Britain than they should be. Just because they may live on the same island with the other Irish, does not mean that they are the same kind. Why are are the Falklands British or Gibralter, because thats what the people wish, not because of what country is nearest.
But obviously it is not that simple when views differ so much in NI
But obviously it is not that simple when views differ so much in NI
Last edited by jonboy on Sat 26 Jul, 2003 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
alright
I am afraid that I am going to have to correct DelD on a few matters raised in his last post. Firstly I am a catholic from N. Ireland. While I view myself as Irish and would one day hope to see a united Ireland I bear no hostility towards the British. In fact I hope to join the British armed forces in the near future. Who rules this place does not really bother me and although I would like to see the island united I have no doubt that economically it would be a worse off place than it is now.
What does annoy me is the sentiments of people like DelD have towards the south of Ireland. The fact that unionists refer to the south as a foreign country I find amusing as when the southern parliament passed the Republic of Ireland Act in 1948 (which established independence from Britain) the then British PM said something along the lines that due to the links/history between the south and Britain it was not to be regarded as a foreign country. Maybe this is why people from the south of Ireland can join the British armed forces and police.
I also object to the republic being neutral in WW2 being used as some stick to beat it with. I accept that officially it was neutral and believe it should not have been, but unofficially it was on the side of the allies by repatriating immediately allied service personnel who for whatever reason found themselves in Eire while imprisoning germen personnel. Does DelD know that thousands of men deserted the Irish army to go and fight with the British in WW2 does he recognise that these men should be saluted? Also how many of those most ‘loyal British citizens’ of Ulster (who despite their undying loyalty to the crown were not conscripted and even opposed it when other British citizens in England, Scotland and Wales were conscripted) gained the VC, Britain’s highest bravery award in WW2? The answer is none. How many ‘disloyal rebel’ Irish won it? One from Belfast who had his achievements ignored by the unionist dominated Belfast city council because of his religion. I am not sure if 16 VC’s were won by southern Irishmen in WW2 alone or in WW1 and WW2 together. However I am sure you will agree this is quite an achievement when according to DelD these men are foreigners.
DelD also brings up the old unionist rant about the south being dominated by the Catholic Church, which means that all people living there live their lives according to church teaching. Divorcing your wife and living in sin with another woman is looked down on by the catholic church, maybe someone should tell the Bertie Ahern, the Irish PM that (although he has recently split up with his partner). Holy Ireland? Such a situation would not go down too well in of Britain and N. Ireland, yet is not seen as being all that important in the supposed strict catholic state of the Republic of Ireland.
DelD may feel he has nothing in common with the south and that the minority do. However it is quite a sizeable minority at well over 40 % who shares a common interest in Gaelic games and to a lesser extent the Irish language with the people who inhabit the south of this island.
I would like to thank DelD for giving me the opportunity to have this rant by posting his opinions however it is disconcerting to see some comments that Catholics would associate coming from a stereotypical RUC man coming from a PSNI officer.
What does annoy me is the sentiments of people like DelD have towards the south of Ireland. The fact that unionists refer to the south as a foreign country I find amusing as when the southern parliament passed the Republic of Ireland Act in 1948 (which established independence from Britain) the then British PM said something along the lines that due to the links/history between the south and Britain it was not to be regarded as a foreign country. Maybe this is why people from the south of Ireland can join the British armed forces and police.
I also object to the republic being neutral in WW2 being used as some stick to beat it with. I accept that officially it was neutral and believe it should not have been, but unofficially it was on the side of the allies by repatriating immediately allied service personnel who for whatever reason found themselves in Eire while imprisoning germen personnel. Does DelD know that thousands of men deserted the Irish army to go and fight with the British in WW2 does he recognise that these men should be saluted? Also how many of those most ‘loyal British citizens’ of Ulster (who despite their undying loyalty to the crown were not conscripted and even opposed it when other British citizens in England, Scotland and Wales were conscripted) gained the VC, Britain’s highest bravery award in WW2? The answer is none. How many ‘disloyal rebel’ Irish won it? One from Belfast who had his achievements ignored by the unionist dominated Belfast city council because of his religion. I am not sure if 16 VC’s were won by southern Irishmen in WW2 alone or in WW1 and WW2 together. However I am sure you will agree this is quite an achievement when according to DelD these men are foreigners.
DelD also brings up the old unionist rant about the south being dominated by the Catholic Church, which means that all people living there live their lives according to church teaching. Divorcing your wife and living in sin with another woman is looked down on by the catholic church, maybe someone should tell the Bertie Ahern, the Irish PM that (although he has recently split up with his partner). Holy Ireland? Such a situation would not go down too well in of Britain and N. Ireland, yet is not seen as being all that important in the supposed strict catholic state of the Republic of Ireland.
DelD may feel he has nothing in common with the south and that the minority do. However it is quite a sizeable minority at well over 40 % who shares a common interest in Gaelic games and to a lesser extent the Irish language with the people who inhabit the south of this island.
I would like to thank DelD for giving me the opportunity to have this rant by posting his opinions however it is disconcerting to see some comments that Catholics would associate coming from a stereotypical RUC man coming from a PSNI officer.
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Guest
- Guest
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Maverick
- Guest
Anybody been watching Ukhistory? Some interesting things about NI.
Like 300 irishmen interred - not a single protestant though!
How derry was 70% catholic yet the wards were set to ensure the protestants were elected every time.
How the IRA was 'dead' and the British Army came to protect the catholics from constant protestant riots. However, the army did not do enough to help the catholics and actually shot five - resulting in the formation of the PIRA to protect the catholics.
Interesting stuff. Its on at 10pm all this week.
Like 300 irishmen interred - not a single protestant though!
How derry was 70% catholic yet the wards were set to ensure the protestants were elected every time.
How the IRA was 'dead' and the British Army came to protect the catholics from constant protestant riots. However, the army did not do enough to help the catholics and actually shot five - resulting in the formation of the PIRA to protect the catholics.
Interesting stuff. Its on at 10pm all this week.
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runningmuppet
- Member
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri 27 Jun, 2003 1:53 pm
- Location: London
