Armed Forces face big new cuts, say Tories

[Midshipman786]

Telegraph Online
By George Jones Political Editor
(Filed: 27/05/2003)


The Tories accused the Government yesterday of planning a further round of defence cuts, including disbanding Gurkha companies, taking tanks out of service and mothballing the aircraft carrier Ark Royal.

Bernard Jenkin, the Conservative defence spokesman, said that a succession of leaks and rumours from the Armed Forces indicated that the cuts would be outlined in a White Paper in the autumn.

He said information passed to the Tories forecast that each Royal Armoured Corps regiment would lose a squadron of 14 Challenger II tanks, a total of 84 and a quarter of the Army's strength.

Mr Jenkin said the Challenger II tanks played a key role in the war in Iraq and performed extremely well.

"Despite intensive combat against Iraqi tanks, only one was lost in action in a friendly fire incident. Reports indicate that the force destroyed dozens of Iraqi tanks."

The Tories had also received information that two infantry battalions were to be cut from the Army.

After the Iraq war ended, it was disclosed that Gurkha companies used to bring regular Desert Rat units up to strength were to be disbanded.

Mr Jenkin said that despite the Ministry of Defence's claims of improved manning figures, the Army was still 5,000 men under strength. At least a quarter of infantry battalions were not being allowed the required time between tours of duty because the forces were overstretched.

The Royal Navy was under severe pressure. Its presence in the Falklands had been reduced to one patrol boat. A third of its frigates and destroyers were in port because their crews were on stand-by to provide cover in case of another fire strike.

Mr Jenkin said: "Royal Navy sources are saying that Ark Royal, the flagship during the Gulf war, is to be mothballed owing to manpower shortages." The carrier Invincible was to be paid off in three years and Splendid, a nuclear submarine, which fired Tomahawk cruise missiles into Iraq, was to be decommissioned this year.

Mr Jenkin said that investigations by the Tory defence team had lent substance to reports that up to 10 warships were to be sold to pay for the new large carriers the Government had promised. Chilean navy personnel had inspected Type 23 frigates.

Only 12 of the Royal Navy's 16 Type 23 frigates were to receive a new advanced sonar, Mr Jenkin said.

In a recent parliamentary answer, the Ministry of Defence had inadvertently disclosed that some frigates were to be disposed of earlier than planned. Navy sources had indicated that the withdrawal of Sea Harrier planes, which would leave the Royal Navy without air cover, was to be brought forward.

Britain might also cut its order for 232 Eurofighter aircraft, as defence chiefs were questioning whether that number would be needed.

Mr Jenkin said the cuts would damage morale in the forces and reduce their effectiveness at a time when the Government was asking more of them.

He said the war in Iraq had clearly demonstrated that there was no substitute for the ability of the forces to take and hold ground. That required tanks and infantry. When the Conservatives left office, 2.7 per cent of national wealth was being spent on defence. At present it was about 2.4 per cent of GDP and was due to fall even lower under Labour.

"The Armed Forces already feel desperately taken for granted," Mr Jenkin said. "There is a real question over their long-term viability if they continue to be managed in this way."

The Ministry of Defence did not deny that further cuts were being considered.

A spokesman said last night: "The White Paper is some way off and I cannot comment on anything that may be in it."

BLOB British soldiers felt their lives were put at risk in the Iraq war because they had no dedicated air cover, said the Tories' defence spokesman yesterday.

Bernard Jenkin said some units waited up to 48 hours for air support because RAF aircraft were under the control of coalition commanders and none was available specifically to back up British troops.

Mr Jenkin, back from visiting troops in the Gulf, said he was concerned that in some cases US commanders deployed British jets to help American troops while British forces had to wait. But US forces held back some of their aircraft to give close support quickly to American units.

Mr Jenkin, on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, questioned whether it had been right to place all RAF forces in the Gulf under coalition control. The Ministry of Defence said the arrangement benefited the operation as a whole.

[Tab]

When the Labour Party came to power they slashed the TA to bits, at the time they said the savings were to pay for the through deck aircraft carriers. Looks like they have spent this money on other things, I wonder when they are going to reduce the civil servants in the MOD buildings and save a bit of cash that way, ah dreaming again.

[may18]

Well, actually the british mod is more efficient than the rest of europe in that it spends a much higher % of its budget on equipment than any major eu country (for example the uk spends around 9B a year on eq, france 5.5B). I think this is an extension of the strategic defence review. Ie there is no local threat, so maximum emphasis will be placed on projection. Ie if you cant carry the tanks, you dont need them.

I do think though, the goverment need to choose between

a) not sending troops abroad anywhere near as much.

or

b) Signifigantly increasing defence spending (to say 4% of gdp)

it was 5% arond the time of the falkland, so its sustainable.

[lew]

dispand the gurkha's NOOOOO!!! why take away one of our countries best infantry regts whats next the marines or the para's ???

[gash-hand]

Yeah, like the Tories can talk - I remember the b*lls up that was 'Options for Change' - they started this recent rot.

As far as I can remember the British forces have always been taken for granted.

[may18]

Whilst I hold the Ghurkas in the highest regard (see my comments on other threads) have they actually fired a shot in anger since Malaya? shoud be complaining about.

they were in the falklands, and attached to the royal irish in the gulf
i believe they have won more VC than anyone else might be wrong

[may18]

I can see one easy way to get cash for the armed forces



our contribution is set to rise to 7.5B this year

im sure that would make a big difference if spent on defence instead?

[Midshipman786]

noooo not another anti EU poster!

im against the euro but im not against the EU, all this talk of withdrawal is just silly. u dont honestly think even if we did withdraw we would suddenly see a huge increase in the defence budget? not gona happen!

[Josh]

I don't understand that poster is it showing profit or contribution? As for labours atttitude for the Armed Forces, bloody disgrace. The disbandment of the Royal Irish Home Service Battalions being the most retarded move yet!

"The Army is over streched"
"Oh I know lets get rid of some of out soldiers"
"What a good idea, John can buy another Jag with the money"
"Yes how lovely"

[Devils Advocate]

Don't see why?

They RIRHSB's earn the same - and more money - then the rest of the Forces, yet only mosey about at home nowadays whilst the rest of you are going and risking your lives in defence of national interests abroad.

DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!

NB. RIRHSB's are big voting blocks (ie. personnel, base support staff and families) for those so-called "ardent defenders!" of "our brave boys"
ie. MOST local unionist councillor, politican, parasite(COUGH!)
-but not all mind.
(but try getting one to raise their head above the parapit -f*ck if you think you've seen closed ranks in the military, believe me you aint seen nuhtin' yet!)

I notice the TA Bat.RIR went off to Iraq (I +II) AND Falklands garrision duty to reinforce the 1ST Bat.RIR without complaint -part timers!

Yet whenever the question of secondment/assignment for short
"out of area" tours was mentioned in the HSB's there was local unroar!

"medical problems", "family strain and commitments", and the vaulted old chestnut "vital for defence of the province" - this being a few (double digit)individual augmenties now!
This being from the FULL-TIME HSB's now!
They didn't even ask the Part -time HSB's such was the wailing and moaning -and what the hell- the nashing of teeth...

(Now I haven't been able to confirm -or deny - this next bit, but, as always in life , there WERE a few who would buck the trend on this issue, but apparently were informed by the local set that it would "set a bad precedent"for the rest, and supposedly, not actually help their respective careers............)

Bet you didn't read that in the NATIONALS!

The RIR HSB has always been jobs for the boys -their recruiting standards are far lower then in the regular army, and recruitment is actively aimed at the unemployed so-called "Loyalist" (SPIT) section of the pop.
(Anyone see the panorama programme on BBC1 Lastnight?)

I for one am sick of the narrow, shallow characterisation of the whole 'unionist' (such a bullsh*t Label !) community in NI as being bible-bashing, or guntoting (or both!) Christian fundamentalists one step removed from "The Jihad Bhoys" of Bin Laden!
The "silent majority" of us are far removed from those arseholes -but like the neo-cons in the US, who gets the news attention? eh?
(by the way, who made that stupid 'Emerald Toilet' remark a while back?!
)

The North has always been the BLACK HOLE for the UK economy, and DEFENCE is no exception.
Some harsh realities:
-PEACE =less media attention= less public scrutiny and outcry= less money to the most highly subsidized part of the UK!
- therefore rationalisation of government public sector = less local politicans........
NEPOTISM; CRONINISM; VESTED BLOODY INTERESTS!
.........and I live here!
(really gets my back up mind...)

However, that aside, If a normal (seems so alien a term where I live.....)Garrison of 5,000, is required fine.
IF the 3,000+ HSB's are so important, fine too.

BUT let them all be re-roled to do the same job as the 1st Bat. as a secondary contingency, and include them in the final 5,000 figure
with just 2,000 troops from the regular WWS Army!!!!! 'on rotation'.
(freeing up some of that tension on the stretch............)

See, A. How many HS recruits their are then,
and B. How many could hack it under normal army standards.
(You'll excuse the sarcastic snigger......)

Funny how that suggestion -although a much raised one in many circles here- never ever sees the light of day -or Parliment!


Militarily, the (truth that dare not speak its name) recent increased
co-operation with the ("FORCES OF POPERY, SATAN AND HIS LEGIONS!)
RoI military, Police and domestic intelligence has paid off in spades.
(once they were asked finally..................)
Jesus, the South is the UK's second largest Market, and the Norths LARGEST!
(ie. "the money is fine, but the friendliness isn't - we need our Royal Irish....errr.. Britsh ..err...(SHOUT REEEEALLY LOUD sticky situation solution #01 ) Boys to protect us from them Southern forces of darkness!"
GIV'ME-A-BREAK! )

Some harsh truths this side of the Channel. (No.1)
Over and Out.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Go UK!) DA.

[Midshipman786]

so i take it ur in favour of the move to disband the RIRHSB's then?