GO CANADA!
Thats were its at...
a bunch of hosers armed with "militia rounds", I says "Bang bang."
Peace keeping is crap. Any country can do it in fact Canada has contributed to more peace keeping operations than anyother UN country.
Of course are massive upcoming contribution of 3,000 troops to Afghanistan this August completely dents are puny budget but who's counting. The brits have the best army + marines in the world but the US would squash you on #s and navy + airforce.
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The british soldier
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voodoo sprout
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Are you sure about that? I realise it's a bit different, but the US seems to be having a few dificulties at the moment...BenChug wrote:Peace keeping is crap. Any country can do it
And with regards to Israel, I think they do have very good soldiers, but obviously suffer from two main difficulties.
First, the Israeli forces are still built on conscription, and while the average Israeli soldier is very highly motivated, this still means idiots can and will get in. And with the level of military presence in and around the Palestinian terriroties, there's plenty of scope for those idiots to find an excuse to shoot something.
Secondly, and more importantly, I think the IDF is too geared towads open conflict. They don't intentionally shoot at kids with rocks except with less than lethal ammunition, which we've been doing in Northern Ireland for yonks anyway, but they can get caught up in the cross fire; while our troops might take cover and get a marksman in position, the Israelis open up as if the gunman was an enemy soldier, and while they are shooting accurately, civilians are often close enough to catch a stray round. Also, their identification seems to be a bit off, if they see someone acting suspiciously (which happens quite a lot), they will be more quick to consider the person a threat and engage, again if they had been taught to make an accurate identification like British troops this wouldn't be such a problem.
All in all, they are treating a delicate peacekeeping (even then, it really should be a hearts and minds operation too) with the attitude of a conventional conflict. They are generally shooting accurately (although our media loves it when a soldier is seen blind firing - that goes back to point one), making good use of airpower and armour etc, but at the end of the day they are failing to consider that the tanks shouldn't even be there. As such I'd say Israeli troops are very good, as long as it's with regards to fighting ability.
Fluffy bunnies - Grrrrr!
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Andy O'Pray
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Yes Sisyphus, I remember Johnnie Ghurka very well and remember him with great respect. I have read this thread with some interest and come to the following conclusions,
The British government have used the Ghurkas in various theatres of war, in some they were excellent in some not so good. I believe that it was Derek Blevins who mentioned, that when their commander was incapacitated they were at a loss. Having said that, I would serve with these guys anywhere, as long as I was in charge.
Some mention was made of a comparison between Israeli troops and British troops. Give me a break, there is no comparison. Take the Israeli out of the desert and he is lost. I think that the ongoing conflict in Iraq proves that the British soldier can go anywhere in the world and put up a good show.
Aye - Andy.
The British government have used the Ghurkas in various theatres of war, in some they were excellent in some not so good. I believe that it was Derek Blevins who mentioned, that when their commander was incapacitated they were at a loss. Having said that, I would serve with these guys anywhere, as long as I was in charge.
Some mention was made of a comparison between Israeli troops and British troops. Give me a break, there is no comparison. Take the Israeli out of the desert and he is lost. I think that the ongoing conflict in Iraq proves that the British soldier can go anywhere in the world and put up a good show.
Aye - Andy.
The British squaddie of all ilks has fought in Arctic, desert, mountain, jungle and plain; but has excelled in the urban environment, where others have been unable to operate through inexperience, fear and poor training. Good troops, well disciplined and led well, win the trust of the population, undercutting the 'terrorist' within, slowly but surely. Kabul, Basra and Um Qasr, are classic examples.I think that the ongoing conflict in Iraq proves that the British soldier can go anywhere in the world and put up a good show.
You should talk to somebody who gives a f**k.
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El Presidente
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El Presidente
The reasons for the British being good soldiers goes back beyond just training, history seems to indicate that the Brits have always been natural borne warriors, the Romans thought so, especially those Picts that they just couldn't tame at all (God Bless the Highland Regiments). Generally it seems to be that cold climate and mountain peoples have become warriors because they did not have the benefit of easy subsistence living. If we had been blessed with the climate of Malaya or even Florida I reckon we would have been happy to sit back and just live. The Anzacs have better climates but Brit genes, as do many of the Americans.
Other than that the proposition that being a small country etc, is sound enough, and that is where the training comes in. The English and Welsh (as it was in those days) archer's training prevailed at Agincourt, the British Redcoat's and Nelsons's gunners rates of fire won the day at many battles. Yes military thinking has been hidebound in history on many occasions too, we had to learn from the early American settlers that standing up in bright colours against a semi-camouflaged sharp-shooting enemy wasn't too good an idea (although it still prevailed at Waterloo) and gradually rifle green was introduced. We eventually learned from the Boers, and the Commando concept, so successful and effective was born.
Underlying it all though, I still believe, is an inbred capability for warfare, coupled with that very British view of fair play which, contrary to some claims from over the pond, does make the Brits very good at peacekeeping too.
Enough on the topic.
Yours Aye
Barry
Other than that the proposition that being a small country etc, is sound enough, and that is where the training comes in. The English and Welsh (as it was in those days) archer's training prevailed at Agincourt, the British Redcoat's and Nelsons's gunners rates of fire won the day at many battles. Yes military thinking has been hidebound in history on many occasions too, we had to learn from the early American settlers that standing up in bright colours against a semi-camouflaged sharp-shooting enemy wasn't too good an idea (although it still prevailed at Waterloo) and gradually rifle green was introduced. We eventually learned from the Boers, and the Commando concept, so successful and effective was born.
Underlying it all though, I still believe, is an inbred capability for warfare, coupled with that very British view of fair play which, contrary to some claims from over the pond, does make the Brits very good at peacekeeping too.
Enough on the topic.
Yours Aye
Barry
BC
Most countries can produce great soldiers, were a lot of the fall down is leadership,poor equipment or not enough of it. The Germans in both World Wars did very well and it took a hell of a lot to beat them. My they were fighting Russia, America, and the whole of the British Empire.
Now can you beat the Canadians or Australians for pride and courage.
There are also the Gurkhas. Seikhs, and the Indian Army all did a fantastic job with great courage, and if any doubts this just check the VC list. Now there are the French well did any see them?
Now can you beat the Canadians or Australians for pride and courage.
There are also the Gurkhas. Seikhs, and the Indian Army all did a fantastic job with great courage, and if any doubts this just check the VC list. Now there are the French well did any see them?
actually im a bit sketchy on whether or not the brits are the best, in terms of actual soldiering definatly.
However I talked to a buddy of mine who just returned from a tour in Bosnia, and he said within his first week there a brit officer shot an aussie officer over a game of cards and two troops raped some dutch troop - buggery is where i draw the line fellas. Im also aware that thats a fairly harsh stereotype and will go no farther than that.
He also worked with alot of em and said for the most part there pretty switched on guys.
However I talked to a buddy of mine who just returned from a tour in Bosnia, and he said within his first week there a brit officer shot an aussie officer over a game of cards and two troops raped some dutch troop - buggery is where i draw the line fellas. Im also aware that thats a fairly harsh stereotype and will go no farther than that.
He also worked with alot of em and said for the most part there pretty switched on guys.
If a man has nothing he is willing to die for then he isn't fit to live.
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Andy O'Pray
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So, the Turks rogered Lawrence of Arabia. When one talks of the British soldier one should include Australian, Canadian, New Zealanders, etc: They were in the main, until recently, from British stock and trained under the British system.
Having held an empire for so long, the Commonwealth forces have become the most versatile in the world. Some countries, like Israel, produce an excellent soldier for a particular part of the world, however, they do not have the versatility of the British soldier.
Aye - Andy.
Having held an empire for so long, the Commonwealth forces have become the most versatile in the world. Some countries, like Israel, produce an excellent soldier for a particular part of the world, however, they do not have the versatility of the British soldier.
Aye - Andy.
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Andy O'Pray
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BenChug, You mentioned a couple of incidents, that you heard secondhand,of somethings that supposedly happened in Bosnia. It does not matter which force you serve with, there is always the occasional unfortunate incident. Remember the Canadian Parachute Regiment in Somalia. You cannot base an entire army on the occasional incident.
I am well aware of the training, leadership, etc; in the Canadian armed forces. My son is presently serving in the Canadian army, prior to that he served for several years with various militia units, Calgary Highlanders and the Royal Newfoundland Regiment to name two. I am aware of how hard the Canadian forces train and how poorly equipped their government keeps them. I also know the pride that their people have for their regiments and their connection to the British wars in which they fought.
Lately there has been a tendancy for the Canadian military to lean towards the Americans, not surprisingly, as they are our next door neighbours, however, the Canadian still sees himself superior as a soldier.
Aye - Andy.
I am well aware of the training, leadership, etc; in the Canadian armed forces. My son is presently serving in the Canadian army, prior to that he served for several years with various militia units, Calgary Highlanders and the Royal Newfoundland Regiment to name two. I am aware of how hard the Canadian forces train and how poorly equipped their government keeps them. I also know the pride that their people have for their regiments and their connection to the British wars in which they fought.
Lately there has been a tendancy for the Canadian military to lean towards the Americans, not surprisingly, as they are our next door neighbours, however, the Canadian still sees himself superior as a soldier.
Aye - Andy.
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The Gurkhas keep being mentioned in this thread, below is a Brief History of The Brigade of Gurkhas.
Following a number of boundary disputes and repeated raids by the Nepalese into Bengal and Bahir, the Honourable East India Company declared war on Nepal in 1814. During the war a deep feeling of mutual respect and admiration developed between the British and their adversaries, the British being much impressed by the fighting and other qualities of the Gurkha soldiers. Under the the terms of the peace treaty, following the war, large numbers of Gurkhas were permitted to volunteer for service in the East India Company, and from those volunteers were formed the first regiment of Gurkhas in 1815.
The numbers of Gurkhas serving the British in India continued to grow. They were instrumental in helping the British to put the Indian Mutiny of 1857 down, particularly during the 'siege' of Delhi where the Sirmoor Rifles won great glory. They took part in many campaigns on the North West Frontier. Between 1901 and 1906 Gurkha regiments were renumbered from the 1st to the 10th and redesignated as Gurkha Rifles.
During World War I some 100,000 Gurkhas enlisted in regiments of the Gurkha Brigade. They fought (and died) in France, Mesopotamia, Persia, Egypt, Gallipoli, Palestine and Salonika. They won two Victoria Crosses. In World War II there were no fewer than forty Gurkha battalions some 112,000 men. Gurkhas fought side-by-side with British and Commonwealth troops in Syria, the Western Desert, Italy and Greece from North Malaya to Singapore and from the Siamese border back through Burma to Imphal then forward again to Rangoon. A total of ten Victoria Crosses were awarded to Gurkhas during World War II.
After the partition of India of 1947 it was decided that six regiments of Gurkha Rifles would remain in the Indian Army, while the remainder (2 GR, 6 GR, 7 GR and 10 GR) were established an an integral part of the British Army to become the modern Brigade of Gurkhas. They moved to the Far East in 1948 and formed 17 Gurkha Infantry Division in Malaya. Additional units of Engineers, Signals and Transport were raised and Regiments of the Brigade operated continuously throughout the twelve year Malayan Emergency. They were again on active service in the Brunei Revolt of 1962 and during 'Confrontation' with Indonesia; four years of continuous operations from 1962 to 1966 in the jungles of Malyasia. It was in November 1965 that Lance Corporal Rambahadur Limbu won his Victoria Cross, bringing the total of these awards to Gurkha nationals to 13 of whom there are now only 4 surviving. An additional 13 VCs have also been awarded to their British Officers during the last 150 years.
Between 1967 and 1972 the Brigade reduced from some 14,000 to 8,000 men, as defence commitments changed and Britain's Armed Forces reorganised. The Brigade's home moved from Malaysia to Hong Kong with Battalions also being stationed in the United Kingdom and Brunei. In 1974 Gurkhas were deployed to reinforce the British Sovereign base in Cyprus when Turkey invaded the island. One battalion, the 7th Gurkha Rifles, took part in the Falklands campaign and Gurkhas were deployed in the Gulf War, Bosnia and more recently in Kosovo, East Timor and Sierra Leone.
Following the Government's announcement of the plans to restructure the Army, and with the handing back of Hong Kong to the People's Republic of China (30th June 1997) necessitating the withdrawal of the military garrison, the size of the Brigade of Gurkhas had to be reduced. On 1st July 1994 the four Gurkha Rifle Regiments, 2 GR, 6 GR, 7 GR and 10 GR reformed into a large Regiment, The Royal Gurkha Rifles (RGR), consisting of three battalions. However, on the withdrawal of 1 RGR from Hong Kong to the UK, 3 RGR was disbanded in November 1996. 2 RGR is currently in Shorncliffe, Kent while 1 RGR are in Brunei. The Regiment provides three reinforcement companies to 1R IRISH, The HIGHLANDERS and 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment. The Regiment also provides the majority of the manpower for the two demonstration companies, at The Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and the Infantry Training Centre Wales.
Following a number of boundary disputes and repeated raids by the Nepalese into Bengal and Bahir, the Honourable East India Company declared war on Nepal in 1814. During the war a deep feeling of mutual respect and admiration developed between the British and their adversaries, the British being much impressed by the fighting and other qualities of the Gurkha soldiers. Under the the terms of the peace treaty, following the war, large numbers of Gurkhas were permitted to volunteer for service in the East India Company, and from those volunteers were formed the first regiment of Gurkhas in 1815.
The numbers of Gurkhas serving the British in India continued to grow. They were instrumental in helping the British to put the Indian Mutiny of 1857 down, particularly during the 'siege' of Delhi where the Sirmoor Rifles won great glory. They took part in many campaigns on the North West Frontier. Between 1901 and 1906 Gurkha regiments were renumbered from the 1st to the 10th and redesignated as Gurkha Rifles.
During World War I some 100,000 Gurkhas enlisted in regiments of the Gurkha Brigade. They fought (and died) in France, Mesopotamia, Persia, Egypt, Gallipoli, Palestine and Salonika. They won two Victoria Crosses. In World War II there were no fewer than forty Gurkha battalions some 112,000 men. Gurkhas fought side-by-side with British and Commonwealth troops in Syria, the Western Desert, Italy and Greece from North Malaya to Singapore and from the Siamese border back through Burma to Imphal then forward again to Rangoon. A total of ten Victoria Crosses were awarded to Gurkhas during World War II.
After the partition of India of 1947 it was decided that six regiments of Gurkha Rifles would remain in the Indian Army, while the remainder (2 GR, 6 GR, 7 GR and 10 GR) were established an an integral part of the British Army to become the modern Brigade of Gurkhas. They moved to the Far East in 1948 and formed 17 Gurkha Infantry Division in Malaya. Additional units of Engineers, Signals and Transport were raised and Regiments of the Brigade operated continuously throughout the twelve year Malayan Emergency. They were again on active service in the Brunei Revolt of 1962 and during 'Confrontation' with Indonesia; four years of continuous operations from 1962 to 1966 in the jungles of Malyasia. It was in November 1965 that Lance Corporal Rambahadur Limbu won his Victoria Cross, bringing the total of these awards to Gurkha nationals to 13 of whom there are now only 4 surviving. An additional 13 VCs have also been awarded to their British Officers during the last 150 years.
Between 1967 and 1972 the Brigade reduced from some 14,000 to 8,000 men, as defence commitments changed and Britain's Armed Forces reorganised. The Brigade's home moved from Malaysia to Hong Kong with Battalions also being stationed in the United Kingdom and Brunei. In 1974 Gurkhas were deployed to reinforce the British Sovereign base in Cyprus when Turkey invaded the island. One battalion, the 7th Gurkha Rifles, took part in the Falklands campaign and Gurkhas were deployed in the Gulf War, Bosnia and more recently in Kosovo, East Timor and Sierra Leone.
Following the Government's announcement of the plans to restructure the Army, and with the handing back of Hong Kong to the People's Republic of China (30th June 1997) necessitating the withdrawal of the military garrison, the size of the Brigade of Gurkhas had to be reduced. On 1st July 1994 the four Gurkha Rifle Regiments, 2 GR, 6 GR, 7 GR and 10 GR reformed into a large Regiment, The Royal Gurkha Rifles (RGR), consisting of three battalions. However, on the withdrawal of 1 RGR from Hong Kong to the UK, 3 RGR was disbanded in November 1996. 2 RGR is currently in Shorncliffe, Kent while 1 RGR are in Brunei. The Regiment provides three reinforcement companies to 1R IRISH, The HIGHLANDERS and 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment. The Regiment also provides the majority of the manpower for the two demonstration companies, at The Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and the Infantry Training Centre Wales.
Yes, im aware of that and if you read what i wrote:
"Im also aware that thats a fairly harsh stereotype and will go no farther than that.
He also worked with alot of em and said for the most part there pretty switched on guys."
I agree the UK has definatly the highest standard of the soldier that one can expect of any NATO or otherwise, and some pretty cool guys.
With the exception of one bloody gunner from 7 Para RHA who cranked a good buddy of mine over him ordering from the waitress?? as far as I can figure. I have the utmost respect for brits (In fact I am one, techinically more of a paddy though.)
With regards to the Canadian Airborne and the governments response of disbanding the entire regiment over several drunk soldiers following orders, although be it way past the intent? I feel that thats an absolutely retarded response. But if you look into it "cost to much money" and they had been looking for an excuse to cut the regiment for budget reasons for years.
Cheers and beers boys.
"Im also aware that thats a fairly harsh stereotype and will go no farther than that.
He also worked with alot of em and said for the most part there pretty switched on guys."
I agree the UK has definatly the highest standard of the soldier that one can expect of any NATO or otherwise, and some pretty cool guys.
With the exception of one bloody gunner from 7 Para RHA who cranked a good buddy of mine over him ordering from the waitress?? as far as I can figure. I have the utmost respect for brits (In fact I am one, techinically more of a paddy though.)
With regards to the Canadian Airborne and the governments response of disbanding the entire regiment over several drunk soldiers following orders, although be it way past the intent? I feel that thats an absolutely retarded response. But if you look into it "cost to much money" and they had been looking for an excuse to cut the regiment for budget reasons for years.
Cheers and beers boys.
If a man has nothing he is willing to die for then he isn't fit to live.
What a lot of people fail to realize is that the British Forces have been in costant action since the end of WW2. The only year the a member of the forces was not killed in action was if I remember rightly 1967. Now a list of the coflicts and the dates can be seen on british-smallwars site and it seems never ending.
