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THE FRENCH
Pretty ignorant remark? My point is that the French politicans/ruling class want a superpower to rival America. The ideas is that the Euro brings together Europe into a big trade block to rival America and the EU army negates the need for NATO, and thus US support in Europe. But of course these two things won't happen, the Euro zone will never be a trade block to rival US and the US is streets ahead in technology, thus we need them to back up the poorly equipped EU army.
A super power to match America? Is that such a bad thing??
After all, which country has weapons of mass destruction and has used them, uses it's foreign policy to invade, de- stabalise and unbalance other countries, executes enough people every year to rival all the other 'evil powers' put together, (and has an appalling history on civil rights), allows its military and secret service a free hand in other countries????? and no doubt more!
I am not anti American but support Yorkie and the others in that we could end up getting sucked into a conflict with no possible outcome!!!!
Street to street fighting in a city the size of Baghdad??? Anyone here fancy it?? Certainly not me. Not to mention the possible repercussions here. With the rise of the B.N.P. and all the other extremists group I predict a gloomy future if we are not very careful. Perhaps it's time to stop for a breather!!
After all, which country has weapons of mass destruction and has used them, uses it's foreign policy to invade, de- stabalise and unbalance other countries, executes enough people every year to rival all the other 'evil powers' put together, (and has an appalling history on civil rights), allows its military and secret service a free hand in other countries????? and no doubt more!
I am not anti American but support Yorkie and the others in that we could end up getting sucked into a conflict with no possible outcome!!!!
Street to street fighting in a city the size of Baghdad??? Anyone here fancy it?? Certainly not me. Not to mention the possible repercussions here. With the rise of the B.N.P. and all the other extremists group I predict a gloomy future if we are not very careful. Perhaps it's time to stop for a breather!!
I totally agree about the grim possible outcome of the conflict, i just worried about France or Brussels for that matter, ruling Europe. We should be wary that Blair is so far up Bush rectum that he would do anything to please him, ie have British troops as an occupying force in the Middle East.
But there is also the worry of the Euro. If we join the Euro, it means that GB has signed up for a facist, centralised government in Brussels of the EU, which will be even less accountable than Westminster and full of slimes like Blair. I'm not xenophobic, but we must be aware what one government and currency means for Europe, and means for Britain.
But there is also the worry of the Euro. If we join the Euro, it means that GB has signed up for a facist, centralised government in Brussels of the EU, which will be even less accountable than Westminster and full of slimes like Blair. I'm not xenophobic, but we must be aware what one government and currency means for Europe, and means for Britain.
Topper
As a "non-lazy student" you should work harder on presenting your arguments. "France and Germany have always had a thing against America". Since when? Does that include June 1944 when US troops landed on Omaha beach, etc.?
Surely, a large trading block to rival the US is not only a good idea, it's the logical thing to do. There is no reason whatsoever why this could not happen. You only have to recall how often, and how readily the US impose trade sanctions on the EU when there's the slightest suggestion we do something that would compete with US trade. ( I think the last one was when we said we didn't want genetically modified food from the US)
The notion that Germany and France can rule Europe is farcical. But if that is a worry then Britain should be in there at the thick of it not faffing around on the periphery. Funny how the Europhobes have gone quiet now that the Euro is trading up at c. $1.08 and £0.60.
You suggest that we need the US to support a poorly equipped EU army. But this is a powerful argument for ensuring an EU army has modern, effective equipment and an integrated command structure. The alternative is to sit back and let the US develop to a stage where they can do what they like, when they like. The current sit'n is precisely G Bush Jnr's first step on that road. If they do "go it alone" what will happen to Western democracies after that?
As a "non-lazy student" you should work harder on presenting your arguments. "France and Germany have always had a thing against America". Since when? Does that include June 1944 when US troops landed on Omaha beach, etc.?
Surely, a large trading block to rival the US is not only a good idea, it's the logical thing to do. There is no reason whatsoever why this could not happen. You only have to recall how often, and how readily the US impose trade sanctions on the EU when there's the slightest suggestion we do something that would compete with US trade. ( I think the last one was when we said we didn't want genetically modified food from the US)
The notion that Germany and France can rule Europe is farcical. But if that is a worry then Britain should be in there at the thick of it not faffing around on the periphery. Funny how the Europhobes have gone quiet now that the Euro is trading up at c. $1.08 and £0.60.
You suggest that we need the US to support a poorly equipped EU army. But this is a powerful argument for ensuring an EU army has modern, effective equipment and an integrated command structure. The alternative is to sit back and let the US develop to a stage where they can do what they like, when they like. The current sit'n is precisely G Bush Jnr's first step on that road. If they do "go it alone" what will happen to Western democracies after that?
Last edited by Sisyphus on Fri 14 Feb, 2003 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We should be wary that Blair is so far up Bush rectum that he would do anything to please him, ie
Topper, the crabs have been there since the last unpleasantness working with the US Air Force. Airpower, not dominating the ground, but keeping his radar ops in a very nervous state.have British troops as an occupying force in the Middle East.
You should talk to somebody who gives a f**k.
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El Presidente
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El Presidente
Some very good comments.
The French are doing the right thing. Thinking!!!!!!
For Goodness sake- Dont you think Saddam would have done something since 1991 if he was so motivated!
As I recall all the terrorists locked up in Britain have come from Algeria etc .... NOT IRAQ
What happened in Somalia? The yanks went in to sort the problem?
Nothing improved!
The French are doing the right thing. Thinking!!!!!!
For Goodness sake- Dont you think Saddam would have done something since 1991 if he was so motivated!
As I recall all the terrorists locked up in Britain have come from Algeria etc .... NOT IRAQ
What happened in Somalia? The yanks went in to sort the problem?
Nothing improved!
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What other would do the following?After all, which country has weapons of mass destruction and has used them, uses it's foreign policy to invade, de- stabalise and unbalance other countries, executes enough people every year to rival all the other 'evil powers' put together, (and has an appalling history on civil rights), allows its military and secret service a free hand in other countries????? and no doubt more!
A Mentally ill man can be forcibly given
Drugs to make him sane enough to be executed, a US appeal court court ruled
Charles Singleton stabbed an Arkansas shop assistant to death in 1979.
Six of the 11 judges said ''involuntary medication followed by executuion"
was ''a better choice'' than suffering psychosls in jail wjthout drugs.
Four judges disagreed, one saying: ''Drug induced sanity is not true sanity.'' One judge abstained.
Singleton, a paranoid schizophrenic, will appeal to the Supreme Court, which in 1986 banned
executing the insane
If your sword is too short step forward it will be long enough
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dave barrett
- Member
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue 25 Dec, 2001 12:00 am
- Location: Nova Scotia Canada
I've just read this thread through, lots of meat in it! Seems to me that we are caught between a rock and a hard place! Most of us are reluctant Europeans, to say the least, but at the same time we don't like to see the USA riding roughshod over the world.
I think Ratso hit a cord when he noted that the four countries speaking most vehemently against an invasion now are the four that probably suffered the most casualties (civilian and military) in the wars of the last century. That may well be a coincidence, and I never thought I would have to look for the French for help, but I hope they put the Veto in. We should separate the Iraqi crisis from our (or mine at least) fear of a greater Europe. I think this time the Frogs are right!! That doesn't mean I like them, It doesn't mean I trust them, it just means I think B.Liar and George Dubya are going to kill an awful lot of innocent people to realize their own personal agendas... Sadly they will also probably kill, unnecessarily, an awful lot of UK servicemen.... I hope they will be able to sleep peacefully after it is all over!
Regards,
Dave B.
I think Ratso hit a cord when he noted that the four countries speaking most vehemently against an invasion now are the four that probably suffered the most casualties (civilian and military) in the wars of the last century. That may well be a coincidence, and I never thought I would have to look for the French for help, but I hope they put the Veto in. We should separate the Iraqi crisis from our (or mine at least) fear of a greater Europe. I think this time the Frogs are right!! That doesn't mean I like them, It doesn't mean I trust them, it just means I think B.Liar and George Dubya are going to kill an awful lot of innocent people to realize their own personal agendas... Sadly they will also probably kill, unnecessarily, an awful lot of UK servicemen.... I hope they will be able to sleep peacefully after it is all over!
Regards,
Dave B.
france
There is a large population of Algerians living in France,could this be the reason for the disagrement,most of the citys of France have grafity in arabic that translated reads FRANCE WILL SOON BE OURS, ARABS in France have more rights than the french,not unlike the imigrants in the UK 
I may have been a sinner,but at least god I,ve been a marine.
Sisyphus, i'm not a Yankophile, I think what they want to do in Iraq is extremely bad for world security and Bush is a complete oaf, the point that France and Germany have something against Amercia is the fact they want to be a super power and are jealous. I think this is a bad thing because Europe isn't supposed to be a super power. One nation such as America can be a super power, but a continent of entirely different nations cannot. Europe at the moment has areas of wealth (SE England), and poverty (S Italy). And of course to make Europe a super power, these diverse regions and nations would have to come under one currency and governement, which to me does not make sense, and can only lead to failure. How are SE England and Southern Italy supposed to have the same interest rates for example?? How many people can name more than 2 MEPS? I can't and these people and their grossly wasteful organasation in Brussels will be making the decisions for the future for us and Europe. Therefore i feel a single government Europe is a very bad propspect, and i feel this single governement super block is a primary ambtion of France.
When i meant occupying force, i meant a force in a shattered, post-Yank blitzed Iraq, full of nasty splinter groups and unexploded bombs etc.
When i meant occupying force, i meant a force in a shattered, post-Yank blitzed Iraq, full of nasty splinter groups and unexploded bombs etc.
Topper,
I don't want to go on too long about this. But a group of nations can become a super power, if the political structure is properly organised. Remember the USSR? We grew up to think of it as one country. We now recognize that it was Russia, Georgia, Latvia, Ukraine, etc. All of which have different languages and were different countries until they became the USSR. OK, eventually, they failed. But that was a failure of communism, not a failure of community (ism) {new word I just invented}.
And, of course, the US has disparative areas of wealth and poverty to equal those in Europe. But they have a single gov't and single currency? Perhaps another powerful argument for the same system in Europe. And before too long (well, maybe in your lifetime, if not mine) there will be more Spanish speakers in the US than English (American) speakers. I could put a plug in for Esperanto here - all EU children conversing fluently with each other in 5 years or so - but better not start another line of discussion.
As for the SE and Italy having the same interest rates. This has to be possible in the same way Texans (wouldn't they just love to declare Independence from the US) as New Yorkers have. (I'm not sure if individual states have the power to impose their own rates of VAT equivalent? I think they have).
I just feel very uncomfortable with the balance of world power lying with one super power. Any healthy system needs checks and balances. There just isn't any at the moment outside of NATO. If NATO collapses after this lot God knows what will happen.
I don't want to go on too long about this. But a group of nations can become a super power, if the political structure is properly organised. Remember the USSR? We grew up to think of it as one country. We now recognize that it was Russia, Georgia, Latvia, Ukraine, etc. All of which have different languages and were different countries until they became the USSR. OK, eventually, they failed. But that was a failure of communism, not a failure of community (ism) {new word I just invented}.
And, of course, the US has disparative areas of wealth and poverty to equal those in Europe. But they have a single gov't and single currency? Perhaps another powerful argument for the same system in Europe. And before too long (well, maybe in your lifetime, if not mine) there will be more Spanish speakers in the US than English (American) speakers. I could put a plug in for Esperanto here - all EU children conversing fluently with each other in 5 years or so - but better not start another line of discussion.
As for the SE and Italy having the same interest rates. This has to be possible in the same way Texans (wouldn't they just love to declare Independence from the US) as New Yorkers have. (I'm not sure if individual states have the power to impose their own rates of VAT equivalent? I think they have).
I just feel very uncomfortable with the balance of world power lying with one super power. Any healthy system needs checks and balances. There just isn't any at the moment outside of NATO. If NATO collapses after this lot God knows what will happen.
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harry hackedoff
- Member
- Posts: 14415
- Joined: Tue 19 Feb, 2002 12:00 am
Thank you m`lud, (Councill rises, pauses with hand on chin as if deeply in thought, farts for effect)
I would think hard about the motives of the French and Germans.
They both have reason enough to resent the good ole US of A.
I don`t think the interests of U.K Ltd are best served by getting into bed with either Gross Deutchsland, oops I mean the European Community, or by becoming the next state in the Land of the Free.
As our Saviour, The Cult Of Downing Street, is so fond of telling us. There is a third way.
Look at Canada, South Africa, New Zealand and Australia. These people are our blood. Look at the rest of our Commonwealth. I don`t give a shite what bollocks are being fed to those like Topper and Chris. The countries of the Commonwealth have difficulties understandig GB`s actions since we joined the EU. So do I. NZ, for example. The main reason for going there was to grow sheep to send back to what they regard as the Mother Country. We don`t buy much lamb from them, now, and they are really struggling. Bananas from the Carib? Er, sadly not. Read these words and think about your country, "Fleetwood Trawlers, Grimsby Fishing Fleet ,Aberdeen Smokies, Shefield Steel, British Coal".
We gave up far more than we have gained from Europe.
I grew up in a Britain that was undergoing enormous changes in the fifties.
We had to give the Empire away.
We didn`t have to abandon it.
The Commonwealth is our best bet. It is the third way.
I believe it is not too late to withdraw from Brussels and stand firm with the countries of the Commonwealth.F%^k Europe, all the arse kissers since Heath and our own Dear Tone ( who I`d personally love to put the head on, er yes)
Better than what we have now, though, hey? Don`t mind me saying that do you Kermit? What? You`ll have to ask Herman? Oh, o.k. then. What? You want our farming industry, the most productive in Europe, as it`s too competitive? You just help yourself mate.
Nelson, increase revolutions. You wasted your time son.
Nothing against the peoples of Europe, but POKE THE EEC, right where it smarts.
There will always be an England(Scotland, Wales and Nor`n Ireland)
And England shall be free
As long as England ...........etc
Apologies, Chef.
I would think hard about the motives of the French and Germans.
They both have reason enough to resent the good ole US of A.
I don`t think the interests of U.K Ltd are best served by getting into bed with either Gross Deutchsland, oops I mean the European Community, or by becoming the next state in the Land of the Free.
As our Saviour, The Cult Of Downing Street, is so fond of telling us. There is a third way.
Look at Canada, South Africa, New Zealand and Australia. These people are our blood. Look at the rest of our Commonwealth. I don`t give a shite what bollocks are being fed to those like Topper and Chris. The countries of the Commonwealth have difficulties understandig GB`s actions since we joined the EU. So do I. NZ, for example. The main reason for going there was to grow sheep to send back to what they regard as the Mother Country. We don`t buy much lamb from them, now, and they are really struggling. Bananas from the Carib? Er, sadly not. Read these words and think about your country, "Fleetwood Trawlers, Grimsby Fishing Fleet ,Aberdeen Smokies, Shefield Steel, British Coal".
We gave up far more than we have gained from Europe.
I grew up in a Britain that was undergoing enormous changes in the fifties.
We had to give the Empire away.
We didn`t have to abandon it.
The Commonwealth is our best bet. It is the third way.
I believe it is not too late to withdraw from Brussels and stand firm with the countries of the Commonwealth.F%^k Europe, all the arse kissers since Heath and our own Dear Tone ( who I`d personally love to put the head on, er yes)
Better than what we have now, though, hey? Don`t mind me saying that do you Kermit? What? You`ll have to ask Herman? Oh, o.k. then. What? You want our farming industry, the most productive in Europe, as it`s too competitive? You just help yourself mate.
Nelson, increase revolutions. You wasted your time son.
Nothing against the peoples of Europe, but POKE THE EEC, right where it smarts.
There will always be an England(Scotland, Wales and Nor`n Ireland)
And England shall be free
As long as England ...........etc
Apologies, Chef.
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