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Bring 'our lads' home?
Troops out? Or to stay put?
It all very well saying that we/they have signed on the dotted line but as we are all aware and it is such a cheap thing to say that we are there (wherever the latest theatre hotspot is) because the Govt have said that we must go there and defend or play our part. The present Govt are split over the present situation Iraq/Afghanistan as it is with some MP's and Cabinet ministers having resigned. Most of Parliament is against the invasion to the Middle East and apart from the fact that our boys (and girls) are actually there then of course we must show support. But just to tow the party line and say cheap comments like what has been mentioned in earlier posts is just basically pathetic. We in the UK have so many problems building up that our own defences are under threat. Why do we as the UK take deploy so many men into so many areas of war when there are indeed other issues that need addressing? Why don't the rest of Europe take a bigger part in these proceedings as we are, as we are constantly reminded by our MP's and the odd ball taxes from Europe, a part of a United Europe. We are as UK residents/citizens so easily fobbed off and willing to accept whatever is thrown at us and we just put up with it all. Lets look at the Global Warming issue. Remember the Ice Age (from books obviously) that obviously melted and the world evolved from there without any problems. Why is it so much our problem us in the UK? We surely play our part already in trying to address this enigma that is so called Global Warming. Is there a hole right above the UK? Tax, tax and more tax. And then tax placed upon tax and we will of course pay it. There has to be an ulterior motive for all of this tax though and that is as far as I am concerned to pay for Govt bills that had not been prior planned like for example the wars in the Middle East where lives are being lost. Ask the families of the soldiers that were dragged out from their vehicles and kicked, beaten and then burnt if they are supporters of this war that has no ending and no winners. Lets not keep hiding behind the "stiff upper lip" attitude and lets be in support of our soldiers, sailors and pilots and let them be allowed the freedom to enjoy life rather than as a pawn in a lost Govts policy.
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Artist
- Guest
nigats
Who bloody cares if the Government are divided over the rights and wrongs of some War. You still do what your told to do. If Blokes started to question their orders and in some cases refuse to soldier just where do you think the Armed Forces are going to end up? It ain't a democracy in the forces. ENDEX!!!!
Try to get out of it and your going to do fecking time! No Messtins.
Artist
Who bloody cares if the Government are divided over the rights and wrongs of some War. You still do what your told to do. If Blokes started to question their orders and in some cases refuse to soldier just where do you think the Armed Forces are going to end up? It ain't a democracy in the forces. ENDEX!!!!
Try to get out of it and your going to do fecking time! No Messtins.
Artist
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fodd
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- Joined: Thu 19 Jun, 2003 10:13 am
- Location: currently perth western australia
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i toatally agree with artist there if your going to join HM forces dont moan if you get sent into theatre otherwise become a hairdresser or something
ex nod was diagnosed with chronic compartment syndrome rejoining eventually.
currently in australia as im traveling the world before i rejoin the marines.
One Man One Life One Chance.
currently in australia as im traveling the world before i rejoin the marines.
One Man One Life One Chance.
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GreyWing
- Guest
I don't think anyone is saying that anyone should disobey orders, I think all nigeats is saying is that if you join up, your still entitled to your opinion and to have the politicians think carefully before they commit you.
Thing is, I can here the same argument coming from the third reich just before some guy questions why they are loading 400 chaps into a shower. If you fail to question why you are doing whatever you're doing then we'll end up worse than the enemy.
You can substiute the word allah with HM Goverment and have the exact same argument from muslims for doing what they are doing. "why did blow up the markets and loads of innocent children? because the government told me to do it!. That's o.k then.
I know some of you are probably saying tree hugger, but I think the difference between us and the enemy and why we live in such a safe and tolerent place is because we do question things. We listen to reason The main thing in the british forces is that, the level of reason to mutiny, is so high it is never reached. I don't think iraq or afganistan is anywhere near that freshold.
One question for you all who disagree, if HM government orders you tomorrow to topple the queen, do you follow orders or do you question them?
or maybe the BNP gets voted in and orders that all blacks are to be shot,
Thing is, I can here the same argument coming from the third reich just before some guy questions why they are loading 400 chaps into a shower. If you fail to question why you are doing whatever you're doing then we'll end up worse than the enemy.
You can substiute the word allah with HM Goverment and have the exact same argument from muslims for doing what they are doing. "why did blow up the markets and loads of innocent children? because the government told me to do it!. That's o.k then.
I know some of you are probably saying tree hugger, but I think the difference between us and the enemy and why we live in such a safe and tolerent place is because we do question things. We listen to reason The main thing in the british forces is that, the level of reason to mutiny, is so high it is never reached. I don't think iraq or afganistan is anywhere near that freshold.
One question for you all who disagree, if HM government orders you tomorrow to topple the queen, do you follow orders or do you question them?
or maybe the BNP gets voted in and orders that all blacks are to be shot,
Thing is there's something psychological whereby soldiers think that as they are recieving the orders from a higher authority figure, they percieve that that figure holds the responsibility.Thing is, I can here the same argument coming from the third reich just before some guy questions why they are loading 400 chaps into a shower. If you fail to question why you are doing whatever you're doing then we'll end up worse than the enemy.
However we dont live in Nazi Germany we live in England, many of Germanys older generation dont beleive that they did anything wrong as they percieved it was done for the greater good of the German people and they came from a harsh time following WW1 into debatable better times. I dont agree with what Hitler did, far from it but he did what he promised the German people by giving them jobs, better homes, safety from communism. The methods he used were just inhumane and had to be stopped.
I still agree with what was said before. If we just withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan the extremists will take it as a sign of weakness and probably will many other countries. If the Government pull through with their promise and give the Army what it needs to get the job done then there wouldnt be so many problems.
Also if you give it a good think I did it for 'God' how is that a reason? Personally I'd rather fight for the security and safety of my family and the people (most of them anyway) of this country than start a holy war for a higher being that may or may not exsist.
To answer your other question, no I probably wouldnt topple the Queen. The monarchy hasnt really had any power since Queen Victoria, I dont mean to insult the Royals but aside from a tourist attraction and morale for the people what function do they have in modern society?
if someone would fill me in on that it'd be welcome? lol
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GreyWing
- Guest
Nirv....
Thing is there's something psychological whereby soldiers think that as they are recieving the orders from a higher authority figure, they percieve that that figure holds the responsibility.
Terrorists say exactly the same but say allah is that higher authority, are they right?
Your confusing my argument with one of anti war, I'm not, I don't care what anyone comes on here to say. You have written what you think and given reason for what you have wrote, I don't know wether you are right or wrong and frankly none of my business, but the fact that you have thought about it is exactly the point I'm trying to make. The only way I would have said you were wrong, is if you had wrote, government says war, therefore I say war, war it is, kill kill kill, they're not soldiers there dam Psychos
just one question, how would you justify your actions for not toppling the monarchy if the government ordered. You said that
Thing is there's something psychological whereby soldiers think that as they are recieving the orders from a higher authority figure, they percieve that that figure holds the responsibility.
With that in mind, I truely beleive that every prime minister that takes the country to war, must stand trial after the conflict and be held accountable for their actions. If he is asking others to risk their lives, he must be prepared to risk his freedom, and if he is justified he will have nothing to worry about.
just for the record, I'm a 100% monarchist and seen in the marines the source of pride it gives to people. Much more than a tourist attraction for me. The Queen has done a tremendous unseen job over the last 50 years with diplomatic work. A figure who is still held in high regard throughout the world, even in islamic states and even though the forces are fighting in her name.
Thing is there's something psychological whereby soldiers think that as they are recieving the orders from a higher authority figure, they percieve that that figure holds the responsibility.
Terrorists say exactly the same but say allah is that higher authority, are they right?
Your confusing my argument with one of anti war, I'm not, I don't care what anyone comes on here to say. You have written what you think and given reason for what you have wrote, I don't know wether you are right or wrong and frankly none of my business, but the fact that you have thought about it is exactly the point I'm trying to make. The only way I would have said you were wrong, is if you had wrote, government says war, therefore I say war, war it is, kill kill kill, they're not soldiers there dam Psychos
just one question, how would you justify your actions for not toppling the monarchy if the government ordered. You said that
Thing is there's something psychological whereby soldiers think that as they are recieving the orders from a higher authority figure, they percieve that that figure holds the responsibility.
With that in mind, I truely beleive that every prime minister that takes the country to war, must stand trial after the conflict and be held accountable for their actions. If he is asking others to risk their lives, he must be prepared to risk his freedom, and if he is justified he will have nothing to worry about.
just for the record, I'm a 100% monarchist and seen in the marines the source of pride it gives to people. Much more than a tourist attraction for me. The Queen has done a tremendous unseen job over the last 50 years with diplomatic work. A figure who is still held in high regard throughout the world, even in islamic states and even though the forces are fighting in her name.
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GreyWing
- Guest
totally agree, the queen is much loved,
I wasn't in any way advocating the royal's to be overthrown, her face is on my pay packet and long may it continue
it was just a point aimed at showing, that there is a high point at which you cease to follow orders, and that you must question things, otherwise you are just as bad as the little allah chanting numpties that are running round afganistan looking for virgins.
I wasn't in any way advocating the royal's to be overthrown, her face is on my pay packet and long may it continue
it was just a point aimed at showing, that there is a high point at which you cease to follow orders, and that you must question things, otherwise you are just as bad as the little allah chanting numpties that are running round afganistan looking for virgins.
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GreyWing
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Alfa
- Guest
There's a big difference between carrying out unpopular operations and genocide!Thing is, I can here the same argument coming from the third reich just before some guy questions why they are loading 400 chaps into a shower. If you fail to question why you are doing whatever you're doing then we'll end up worse than the enemy.
You make it sound like they did that on day one. It was a long road before they got to the point of ordering those sort of crimes. There had been years of conditioning Germans to think of the Jews as sub-human and years of war to desensitize people so that what once would have been seen as unimaginable crimes ended up just being "another day at the office" it was a long and slippy road but nothing like what we're on.
The government aren't trying to tell the soldiers that the Iraqis/Afghans are sub humans who need to be wiped out, we're not trying to wipe out the next generation by killing women and children it's just that it's a bit of a mess and people don't think we should have got involved in the first place. There's no real difference with this and the many other conflicts we have been involved in over the years it's just that these are on a larger scale and are being played out on peoples TV screens.
I think if you want to be a soldier it's because you want to go on operations and (although it's not something most people will admit too) one of the reasons is to see combat. Now after signing up and knowing what you're doing, it's been plastered all over the news for years now so no one can say they didn't think they'd be going to war, you can't complain that the operation/combat you're in isn't the one you wanted.
Iraq actually is less pointless than the various wars which resulted in the withdrawal from Empire, at least there is some point to why we're still in Iraq ie; we want to try and create a stable state before we leave where as in Aden, Cyprus and half a dozen other places we were just there fighting(and loosing more men) when we knew we were going to leave and had nothing to gain from it.
Anyway rant over, I've probably just totally gone off on a tangent and missed the point by hey ho
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GreyWing
- Guest
lol I like my rant as much as the next guy,
I'm not trying to compare anything that we've done, to anything the third reich did, I don't believe anything we have done in iraq or afganistan warrants muntiny or even comes close.
All the point I'm trying to make is that, bad things happen when people stop thinking for themselves. What I do say is that The thing that makes the british forces so well regarded around the world, is that we have a moral mutiny point, but that point is so high it had not been reached on many occasions, but I think it is there. Some guys see this as a weakness, I see it as a strength.
I'm not trying to compare anything that we've done, to anything the third reich did, I don't believe anything we have done in iraq or afganistan warrants muntiny or even comes close.
All the point I'm trying to make is that, bad things happen when people stop thinking for themselves. What I do say is that The thing that makes the british forces so well regarded around the world, is that we have a moral mutiny point, but that point is so high it had not been reached on many occasions, but I think it is there. Some guys see this as a weakness, I see it as a strength.
The Government are chosen by the people to represent the people (supposedly) Therefore how would toppling the monarchy be in the best interests of the people?just one question, how would you justify your actions for not toppling the monarchy if the government ordered
I think yes at that point you would have to step back and think hang on? Mainly because the monarchy/parliament split is what kicked off the English civil war and that would be the last thing we want.
Anyways thats waay of topic lol. Last point on the Germany thing, the people put on trial during the Nuremburg war trials (hope thats correct) were the one's in the Nazi leadership who werent executed and the people who brought Hitler to power, so in the Allies view they were the one's to blame. Alfas point in his first paragraph basically sums it up.
Back on track..if you look through all the wars Britain has been in there will always be people who disagree, disobey, desert. You cant bring absolutly everyone around to the same point of thought. However the armed forces know what there doing and everyone else minus the occasional individual knows whats expected of them.
sorry for the long post....again
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GreyWing
- Guest
Tab... Lets take the situation in the falklands where the SAS was ordered to take an argy airfield on the mainland.
They knew it was stupid and a political objective not a military one. Several chaps said no way, and I believe one or more of them to be section commanders whose concern was for there men.
Because of this, the mission was delayed long enough for them to be removed, and becuase the mission was delayed, the mission was looked at again and cancelled. These men lost there military careers.
This was all but mutiny, I say those men were more courages to stand up for what they thought was right and tell there political masters they were wrong and save the lives of there mates...
Just wondering what you guys think of those men that mutinied and what do you think there mates who are alive today think of them?
They knew it was stupid and a political objective not a military one. Several chaps said no way, and I believe one or more of them to be section commanders whose concern was for there men.
Because of this, the mission was delayed long enough for them to be removed, and becuase the mission was delayed, the mission was looked at again and cancelled. These men lost there military careers.
This was all but mutiny, I say those men were more courages to stand up for what they thought was right and tell there political masters they were wrong and save the lives of there mates...
Just wondering what you guys think of those men that mutinied and what do you think there mates who are alive today think of them?
