Just a quick two cents in reply to a post further up, I saw on't telly a while back a documentary on the conflict in Chechnya in which they said that the majority of people fighting aren't Muslim, they are just fighting for their country's freedom. After the war began, Muslim extremists muscled their way in and provided funding and weaponry for the Chechen rebels, causing the world's media to brand them all as Muslim extremists. Can anyone shed some light on this for us? (maybe a new thread is needed?)
I sat and watched the breaking news for most of the day, I was astounded at 2 things - the barbarity of the situation, and the number of conflicting reports the Beeb were giving. I don't claim to know much about reporting and news broadcast, but surely they can monitor the information and cross-check it with other information they have had before sending it out?
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Suicide bombers killing kiddies in southern Russia...
The Russian policy towards Chechnya may have been a bit questionable in the past, but in my opinion Putin will be forced to take even tougher actoion against rebels in breakaway republics. He has taken an aggressive approach towards terrorists so far and taking a softer or more cautious approah from now on will be a sign of weakness in the eyes of the terrorists and Russian civilians alike.
Suicide bombings in Chechnya and Russia cause resentment throughout Russia towards the terrorists, but the mass killing of innocent children and adults in a republic that has been relatively free from conflict will cause uproar that has not been seen in Russia for many years at least. The Moscow theatre seige led to over a hundred deaths, but most people blame that on the wrongful use of gas. School number one will be forever seen as the place were the enemy massacred innocent lives without provocation. With four different attacks in four consecutive days, the russian people may blame Putin for a lack of secutiy but they will directly seek the destruction of the terrorists.
Suicide bombings in Chechnya and Russia cause resentment throughout Russia towards the terrorists, but the mass killing of innocent children and adults in a republic that has been relatively free from conflict will cause uproar that has not been seen in Russia for many years at least. The Moscow theatre seige led to over a hundred deaths, but most people blame that on the wrongful use of gas. School number one will be forever seen as the place were the enemy massacred innocent lives without provocation. With four different attacks in four consecutive days, the russian people may blame Putin for a lack of secutiy but they will directly seek the destruction of the terrorists.
The Best Is Yet To Come
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The annoying thing is, I believe that Chechnya should be independant. I just don't like the way they're going about it.
Why the f**k did they do this? They've lost all support they might have once had. Everyone hates terrorism, and shooting innocent kids in front of their parents is the lowest of the low. It's sick. And what's more, they'll never get Chechnya now. So they'll do it again. And again. And again.
Worthless c**ts. F**k them all.
Ghost
Why the f**k did they do this? They've lost all support they might have once had. Everyone hates terrorism, and shooting innocent kids in front of their parents is the lowest of the low. It's sick. And what's more, they'll never get Chechnya now. So they'll do it again. And again. And again.
Worthless c**ts. F**k them all.
Ghost
What needs to be highlighted is that this seige was carried out by Chechnyan terrorists who are serperate from other rebel groups. Some leaders of the rebels have denounced the atrocity, much in the same way the Palestinian authorities denounce suicide bombings. I dont know too much about chechnya's history to decide whether to sympathise with thier cause, apart from the fact that is was claimed by Russia in the C18th and the Chechnyans want independance. However no matter what the cause is those who are willing to kill innocent people need to be killed first. These people attacked with no reason therefore are not Chechnyan freedom fighters but killers.
I sympathise with the Palestinian struggle, but I condem terrorist attacks. I have a lot of reason to oppose American expansionism, but I condemmed 9/11 and supported thier action against AQ. The international community may need to push for peace in Chechnya and surrounding regions, but need to unite to destroy the terrorists.
I sympathise with the Palestinian struggle, but I condem terrorist attacks. I have a lot of reason to oppose American expansionism, but I condemmed 9/11 and supported thier action against AQ. The international community may need to push for peace in Chechnya and surrounding regions, but need to unite to destroy the terrorists.
The Best Is Yet To Come
Greg if I had time I would post pictures of bad things every race has done in history. But you cant simply say that its 'arabs'. And tar about a billion people with the same brush.Greg S wrote:KlinkKlank go to http://www.ogrish.com/index.php?class=s ... w&id=16906 (WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC) and here you will see what arabs are capable of doing.KlinkKlank wrote:Spot on Tab.Tab wrote:Now this incident brings up many questions, well for it does.
Why was this school chosen for this form action?
Now these places are not chosen at random, so who passed on the information, and why.
Now a terrorist will die for his cause, but he prefers to live even if it is just to rub the governments nose in it. So if this is case they must have had an escape route planned.
On the Military side there was so much wrong that whole thing developed into a farce.
Why wasn't the whole area cordoned of with barb wire, with gaps in it for controlled exit.
Why wasn't there a second cordon to keep the parents back.
Where was the field hospitals incase things went pear shape
The same applies for the Fire Brigade.
Why where camera's right up the front with the troops, now you could tell at a glance what sort of troops you where facing, by looking at the APC you could see that the machine guns were not loaded or manned, there did not appear to be any other crew around them in case they where needed. Any terrorist watching television would have a pretty good idea just where he could go and what to do.
The Russian President is normally in front of the camera's like all the other politicians, but this time was missing for the whole time, I think that their Army Generals are going to take one big hit over this.
Now what about TASS the Russian News agency, well what muck up thats been,not only over this but on the two Russian airliners that crashed earlier on this week.
Its easy to blame "Arabs"(by this you mean every Arab?), we should just wait to get more info.
Thats the kind of friendly people you have in Iraq. These Islam nutters need to be totally destroyed! They should send in the Gurkhas to get revenge, the savage bastards..........
Altho the Chechnens are Muslim, and some tie might be seen there. We just need to wait for some evidence before we can blame Al Qaeda.
Links for Chechnya:
Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/
BBC Time line
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-p ... 357267.stm
The conflict the west always ignores
http://www.newstatesman.com/site.php3?n ... 0401260014
Prague Watchdog is an on-line service that collects and disseminates information on the conflict in Chechnya, focusing on human rights, humanitarian aid conditions, media access and coverage, and the local political situation.
http://www.watchdog.cz/
Just an observation that I would like to make, while watching these events unfurl in Russia the BBC went over to their correspondent there. Every one was walking around in shirt sleves including the troops. Now crouched down behind a car giving his opinions on the seige was the BBC reporter with a huge blue flak jacket and a bigger blue steel helmet. I wondered just what the locals thought.
It sickens me when people blame an entire race of people for the crimes of a minority. It also makes me angry when tabloid newpapers and politicians spread hatred by immediately linking acts of terror to certain groups of individuals and jumping to conclusions.
The Russians are already blaming AQ for this act because they claim 10 of the terrorists were arabs. Evil as they are, it doesnt mean AQ was responsible or part of it. An arab or other terrorist is not autimatically a member of AQ. They could be mercenaries, Checnyans or Russians themselves. There are countless terrorist groups throughout the world with numerous numbers of enemies, but the politicians of today chose the same route by linking each and every terrorist with AQ and OBL.
Because of the 9/11 attacks and the global 'war on terror' it is more likely that countries will try anything to make the link between an atrocity and Islamic extremists in order to justify future actions. The war on terror is not a war on global terrorism, as it should be, but a war on Islamic terrorists who were responsible for 9/11. By linking these hostege takers with AQ, Putin is loooking for a mandate to escalate in Chechnya and other republics.
Even though I believe that the threat of terrorism should be tackled before the terrorists make the first move, I am affraid that Russia's linking of the hostege takers with AQ will spawn more wars and destabalise the region. We have already seen the false linkage of terrorist acts to justify illegal wars. Bush and co were so insistant that Saddam was part of 9/11 that the people, fueled by the media, became paranoid of Saddam which gave Bush the support and 'justification' to invade Iraq.
The American public believed that Saddam was a threat and a terrorist and Bush exploited this to invade Iraq. Russia has several adveraries, including the other breakaway Russain republics, which it would like to deal with. Putin may try to link the seige with as many groups as he can in order to justify wars that do not need to happen. groups and countrys may become targets even if they have denounced terrorism and have no record of it.
Ovcourse AQ may have played a role in this and then Russia has reason to escalate in countries that it deems threatening. However, escalation in countries that have no links to terrorism may produce new terrorists.
If Russia can prove a link with AQ, it may become more determined than the US to remove it's enemies and thier supporters. For all we know Russia could be drawing up plans to attack countires such as Syria or Iran, especially now that the Russian economy needs a boost.
The Russians are already blaming AQ for this act because they claim 10 of the terrorists were arabs. Evil as they are, it doesnt mean AQ was responsible or part of it. An arab or other terrorist is not autimatically a member of AQ. They could be mercenaries, Checnyans or Russians themselves. There are countless terrorist groups throughout the world with numerous numbers of enemies, but the politicians of today chose the same route by linking each and every terrorist with AQ and OBL.
Because of the 9/11 attacks and the global 'war on terror' it is more likely that countries will try anything to make the link between an atrocity and Islamic extremists in order to justify future actions. The war on terror is not a war on global terrorism, as it should be, but a war on Islamic terrorists who were responsible for 9/11. By linking these hostege takers with AQ, Putin is loooking for a mandate to escalate in Chechnya and other republics.
Even though I believe that the threat of terrorism should be tackled before the terrorists make the first move, I am affraid that Russia's linking of the hostege takers with AQ will spawn more wars and destabalise the region. We have already seen the false linkage of terrorist acts to justify illegal wars. Bush and co were so insistant that Saddam was part of 9/11 that the people, fueled by the media, became paranoid of Saddam which gave Bush the support and 'justification' to invade Iraq.
The American public believed that Saddam was a threat and a terrorist and Bush exploited this to invade Iraq. Russia has several adveraries, including the other breakaway Russain republics, which it would like to deal with. Putin may try to link the seige with as many groups as he can in order to justify wars that do not need to happen. groups and countrys may become targets even if they have denounced terrorism and have no record of it.
Ovcourse AQ may have played a role in this and then Russia has reason to escalate in countries that it deems threatening. However, escalation in countries that have no links to terrorism may produce new terrorists.
If Russia can prove a link with AQ, it may become more determined than the US to remove it's enemies and thier supporters. For all we know Russia could be drawing up plans to attack countires such as Syria or Iran, especially now that the Russian economy needs a boost.
The Best Is Yet To Come
Fundamentalists are everywhere. Not just Islamic, but Hindu, Siekh, those cults in America and elswhere (David Koresh etc). As stated earlier, they are just pyschotic disturbed people who feel no compassion for human life in pursuit of their "cause".
They just all need to be put to the sword before they kill anymore innocents.
I do think, however, that the Russians could have thought things out a little better. However, they weren't really in a position to do anything about tit once the mayhem began inside the gym.
Let's hope lessons are learned from all this. We all need to be vigilant and get tougher on terrorists. Being soft on them won't help.
They just all need to be put to the sword before they kill anymore innocents.
I do think, however, that the Russians could have thought things out a little better. However, they weren't really in a position to do anything about tit once the mayhem began inside the gym.
Let's hope lessons are learned from all this. We all need to be vigilant and get tougher on terrorists. Being soft on them won't help.
Remember, knowledge is power, unless you forget it all.
As far as I can see the troubles start when you remove all hope from the people that are being controlled, and with hope desperation sets in and terrible things get done in the name of freedom. No I am not saying it is right what has been done in Russia, but one should take a step back and look at the bigger picture. How many times have the free press been allowed into Chechnya and seen the Russian troops taking out whole area's. They say there is not a family in Chechnya who has not lost at least one family member, through Russian violence. No I don't have the answer but I just feel sorry for the ordinary people of these lands.
You can't make sweeping comparisons between Jim Jones, David Koresh and fundamentalist Christians. Fundamentalist Christianity has nothing to do with being radical, it is merely a form of protestantism which focuses on the Bible and it's allegories and metaphors to be taken literally.Boxingmad wrote:Fundamentalists are everywhere. Not just Islamic, but Hindu, Siekh, those cults in America and elswhere (David Koresh etc). As stated earlier, they are just pyschotic disturbed people who feel no compassion for human life in pursuit of their "cause".
They just all need to be put to the sword before they kill anymore innocents.
I do think, however, that the Russians could have thought things out a little better. However, they weren't really in a position to do anything about tit once the mayhem began inside the gym.
Let's hope lessons are learned from all this. We all need to be vigilant and get tougher on terrorists. Being soft on them won't help.
Absolutely. There's always two sides to every story. The press are controlled very tightly in Russia. Putin has banned any form of political debate on TV, radio, print press etc. I certainly don't believe the official figures given by the Russians, and i hear of absolute brutality from Russian soldiers in Chechnya, a conflict which goes back many years.Tab wrote:As far as I can see the troubles start when you remove all hope from the people that are being controlled, and with hope desperation sets in and terrible things get done in the name of freedom. No I am not saying it is right what has been done in Russia, but one should take a step back and look at the bigger picture. How many times have the free press been allowed into Chechnya and seen the Russian troops taking out whole area's. They say there is not a family in Chechnya who has not lost at least one family member, through Russian violence. No I don't have the answer but I just feel sorry for the ordinary people of these lands.
As stated earlier, it's just like Israel/Palestine. Tit 4 tat.
I saw a very interesting documentary on UK History about the Munich Olympic siege in 1972. A major cock-up by the Germans which resulted in all the hostages dying. Very similar to Russia at the weekend.
Remember, knowledge is power, unless you forget it all.
