WW II thoughts.

[Hornet]

Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum but I have on occasion visited this site to get the opinions of people outside the US on various issues. I have not posted anything yet but after reading some of the comments, I felt compelled to at least post a reply.

[quote]Talk of it being Europe's problem is missing the point. When you have a dictator who tries to wipe out 6 million people because of their genes/religion it is the worlds problem. Geography becomes largely irrelevant unless you deal in the harshest realpolitik......which, unfortunately, I believe the US does.[/quote]

At the time the US went to war at the end of 1941, the full scale of the Final Solution was not fully understood by the Allies or even implemented by the Germans. In fact, the Allies did not know of many of the concentration camps until they captured them in 1945. To say that the US sat idly by while 6 million Jews were being massacred is completely inaccurate.

[quote]Unfortunately this arrogance has spreads downwards. Who remembers the episode of friends when the father of the Gellers says to the rude English father of his fiancee

'If it wasn't for us you'd all be speaking German'[/quote]

You really should get a better gauge of American opinions than from a "Friends" episode.....

[quote]Perhaps true but, disturbingly, the audience went wild. How can you expect anything other than blind nationalism in the masses from a nation that persuades (are 5 year olds ever persuaded? forced perhaps.) its children from the age of 5 to pledge allegance to the flag every day. Repeating a type of mantra that they would find disturbing if it were followed in other countries.[/quote]

I hardly think that simple "Pledge of Allegiance" constitutes political indoctrination of our youth as you seem to imply. I quote "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." holds deep feelings with many of us especially the last 6 words. If the effect of saying this everyday hammers the meaning of the 6 words of the Pledge to our youth, then all the better.

[quote]It is my contention that if Britain hadn't had the courage to stand up to the Nazis in a fight it wasn't really sure it could win, we would soon have seen a Nazi Empire to dominate the world. And if that had happened (taking into account that it was only British science, gifted to the US, that gave them the first atom bomb) America could well have been speaking German too. With the knowledge that they could have stopped it.[/quote]

We do realize that British science contributed to the development of the atom bomb but you should realize it was not just British science. The Manhattan Project which was the codename for the developmental effort was largely headed by scientific refugees from Italy (Enrico Fermi) and Hungary.

[Snib]

Fair enough Hornet. You obviously know more about the details than me. But let me explain a little. Wholley, my post wasn't deliberately inflammitory so, if you think I'm ignorant explain why, without growling. None of the opinions were anyone's but mine taken from the facts I was given and other observations.

My citing of the friends example was indicative. I realise that some of the whooping was in reaction to an uppity character being brought back to earth but gosh. What a stupid thing to cheer. For more than one reason.

The arguement that the final solution was not understood holds little water for me and stems from the excuse made by wartime Germans that they didn't know what was going on. Balls. There were common jokes about Jew soap. People knew but were too scared to speak up. Understandable but I totally reject the fact that the elite were in the dark about this. There were spies everywhere in wartime.

You're right. in the force of my arguement about the bomb I exaggerated. Combined effort from many countries.

But the pledge of allegiance is worrying. The sentiments behind it are arguably admirable. And the fact that almost all Americans participate perhaps makes it acceptible to you, but to large parts of the world forcing children to repeat things is alarming.

Learning by rote should be saved for facts like multiplication tables and grammar rules. When it is used, every morning of every day to repeat something like this the words and their meaning may (for some, though not all) become clouded over, giving a more general message of patriotism that some, though not all, feel could lead to nationism because of the sheer number of times it is said. To me, it constitutes a kind of low grade brainwashing.

I'm glad you realise what Britain contributed to the atom bomb. None of the many intelligent and educated Americans I met at University did. That is worrying.

[Frank S.]

I think Spanner, Tab and Hornet made some good points here. I also think it's fine for you (Snib) to question motives of US administrations, but it's getting a little wobbly.
First, there's a natural tendency to 'personalize' countries and administrations (systems, in general). But this form of anthropocentrism is misguided.
In your posts you demonstrate this by referring to the UK as follows:
"the bravery of Britain, in declaring war on Germany, (Hitler didn't really want to fight us) when we weren't sure we could win."
"If we hadn't done this [...]"
"Britain stood alone against the Nazis"
The implications being that Britain was of one mind, and determined in the face of the enemy. That is never the case.
To this day, statesmen refer to other nations as "friends", which wrongly gives the relationship a 'human' dimension, something wholly inaccurate in my opinion.
When most people all over the world think of WWII and Britain, I think the first thing that comes to mind is Churchill. But Churchill as a leader and individual certainly had political opponents at home, both in government and the public. And dissenters.
You attempt to differentiate between the American men and women who fought the war, and the administrations. But you also have already 'generalized' what Britain was and did, and that generalization extends to your view of the US, which is fine as a 'primer' of sorts.
Systems are only as good as the individuals who make them work from within.
Don't read too much in the pledge of allegiance, as Hornet pointed out. If you wish to examine brainwashing in the US, try looking at Madison avenue instead. The form of nationalism which you find offensive or disturbing (such as that represented in TV shows) is in fact superficial. If you were to spend time in the US, you will likely find that on the whole people are not that well versed in US and world history (sadly), but also that they do not tend to discriminate based on color or national origin.
Consider that since 9/11, there are been remarkably few instances of retaliation against Arab immigrants.
There have been some,yes, but when I still lived in France in the '80s when waves of terrorism were underway, the reaction of the man on the street was much harsher than anything I've seen here.

[Tab]

Hornet old chum, the Allies where well aware of what was going on in Germany and of the Concentration Camps, a number of people had escaped and had made the Allies fully aware of what was going on, also the had been photographed from the air. Britain like many other Countries just could not grasp that this could actually happen, lets face it even the Pope chose to ignore it.
Also you mentioned the Manhattan Project, but we also passed on to you for nothing all our latest research on radar, and the jet engine and all other technical expetise. Also we passed on to you all our latest decoding technology. Also we passed on all out research into antibotics which you you developed into penicillin and made a fortune out of it. Did we get any thanks for this, did we hell, hardly a footnote in the history books.

[Hornet]

Snib,
Again, I disagree with your comments that the Holocaust was known amonst the US Administration prior to our entry in to WWII. Although Jews were certainly being mistreated, evicted from their homes, etc., they were not being exterminated at mass numbers prior to 1941. If I recall, Auschwitz and Treblinka were not built until 1941 and 1942. So, if these notorious camps were not built at this time, how could the US administration at the time know the scale of the massacre as you are implying?

One last point about the "Friends" episode you seem to enjoy associating with the average American....The epsiode you are referring to where the crowd cheers about the snide remark about Americans saving your ass during WWII was filmed in London......

[Mrs. Frank S.]

This might help to clarify when the allies became aware of the "Final Solution".

The first report which spoke of a plan for the mass murder of Jews was smuggled out of Poland by the Bund (a Jewish socialist political organization) and reached England in the spring of 1942. The details of this report reached the Allies from Vatican sources as well as from informants in Switzerland and the Polish underground. (Jan Karski, an emissary of the Polish underground, personally met with Franklin Roosevelt and British Foreign Minister Anthony Eden). Eventually, the American Government confirmed the reports to Jewish leaders in late November 1942. They were publicized immediately thereafter.

Also, the extermination orders coincided with Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union in June, 1941. In December 1941, the first camp to use gas was put in to operation at Chelmno.

The above information and more can be found here.

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/index.html

[Hornet]

Tab,
The point I'm trying to raise is this...Were the Jews being exterminated on a massive scale prior to December 7 , 1941 and did the Roosevelt Administration know about it? I agree that as the war progressed the Allies did get a better understanding about what was going on and like the Pope, did not put forth significant efforts to help end this tragedy. But it is my belief that this lack of effort was not so much being callous as not fully understanding the scope of what was going on.

I also realize that the British gave a tremendous boost to the US armaments industry by providing cutting edge technology such as the items you described. You can also add Rolls Royce piston engine technology provided to our P51 fighters as another signifcant contribution.

Mind you that I am in no way denigrating any particular country's effort, especially Britain's, to win the war but it does irk me that there are quite a bit of cynics out there that seem to spend all their time finding something bad on an Allied team effort that produced so much good in this world.

[Seven]

I don't think anyone in those days, or nowadays for that matter, could actually grasp the scale at which this extermination was going on. And even than, would you declare war on Germany based on some sketchy information about some camps?
On the whole, I think the technology contribution on the part of the Americans was more significant than the British. Not that strange considering the recources the US had, the size of it's population and the fact that it wasn't bombed half the time.

[Mrs. Frank S.]

Tab,
The point I'm trying to raise is this...Were the Jews being exterminated on a massive scale prior to December 7 , 1941

While thousands of Jews were murdered by the Nazis or died as a direct result of discriminatory measures instituted against Jews during the initial years of the Third Reich, the systematic murder of them did not begin until the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941.

...and did the Roosevelt Administration know about it?

The various steps taken by the Nazis prior to the "Final Solution" were all taken publicly and were, therefore, reported in the press. Foreign correspondents commented on all the major anti-Jewish actions taken by the Nazis in Germany, Austria, and Czechoslovakia prior to World War II. Once the war began, obtaining information became more difficult, but reports, nonetheless, were published regarding the fate of the Jews. Thus, although the Nazis did not publicize the "Final Solution," less than one year after the systematic murder of the Jews was initiated, details began to filter out to the West.

This information was found at the website I listed previously. It is the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a site put together for and by the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust.

Julie

[Tab]

Hornet old chum, just some thing to think about, did not the Americans send ship loads of German Jews back to Germany, when they tried enter America as refugees.

I think main problem was that it was hard to imagine just what was going on in Germany at that time. How was any body to comprehend mass murder on such a scale, even now after seeing the films and talking to some of the survivors, just how do you accept that man could be so cruel.
If some one had written about that before it had happened no one would believed them, even the Jews being taken to the camps did not believe it.
So why should governments or other people not involved believe it.

[Wholley]

Wow!this thread has become interesting,
The US only became involved in WW1 due to the sinking of the Lusitainia
in 1917 by a German U-boat drowning many US citizens.The Dough Boys under General Pershing had little effect on the outcome of the war as they entered too late with little training in trench warfare.The US at the time had little interest in European wars and were in fact a little isolationist.
WW11 is another matter.The US entered the war by supplying Lease-Lend Warships as early as 1939,building motors for Spitfires and Hurricanes in Detroit under license from Rolls Royce.The UK knew about the Schiesler(SP)plan in 1938,unfortunately Chamberlain forgot to tell the French,so the British shot themselves in the foot.US,Canadian,Indian,Pakistani,Free French,Israeli,Australian,New Zealand,Dutch,etc were all in action at the start.So,Snib how do you figure that the British were alone?
Wholley.

[Seven]

The Lusitania was actually sunk in 1915, and although it may have helped the US in deciding to join the fight, it certainly wasn't it's prime reason.
The Merlin engines built for Spitfires weren't used until 1942-43 at the earliest. The only Spitfire to use a Packard-built Merlin engine was the LF.XVI, which did not enter service until mid-1944.

[Spannerman]

The Merlin engines built for Spitfires weren't used until 1942-43 at the earliest. The only Spitfire to use a Packard-built Merlin engine was the LF.XVI, which did not enter service until mid-1944.

Correct, and Rolls Royce would not have Packard Rolls Royce stamped on the Merlin engine block, although as it turned out the Packard built Merlin fitted to the P51 Mustang turned out to be a winner!

I can't help but think that without the concerted effort of ALL that were involved in fighting the Axis powers in WWII, whether it was late or not, brought those three nations to their knees.

[Mince]

On a lighter, anecdotal, note, once when Churchill was in the States, Roosevelt wanted to talk to him and was wheeled into a room where he found Churchill taking a bath. Roosevelt made to leave but Churchill got up, butt naked, and said imperially "The Prime Minister of Great Britain has nothing to hide from the President of the United States." So recounteth Roosevelt's grandson on some history documentary I saw a while ago.

[Snib]

Frank S: you're right I did personalise the countries involved. In defence of this it was the first thread I had started so I felt a need to press the subject.

As regards American nationalism, I have felt that perhaps the passion is not there but on my short visit to the East Coast and my meeting of many Americans at Uni (St. Andrews is packed with them!) they tended to display a sort of blanket ignorance/arrogance. Picture a preoccupied man whistling and drinking a beer, who, when asked, answers 'Sure America are the greatest but so what?' That expresses the mood quite well I feel.

Hornet: Trust me that British crowds do not whoop/cheer like that. Never. They simply can't do it. We sound different. And no way would a British audience have cheered that.

Also (and thanks to Mrs. Frank as well for info.) I didn't know the details of the dates of the 'final solution', so fair point. But if they had known would it have mattered?

So my questionstill stands - this was where my overall thread was trying to lead- were the US cynical in their late entry to WWII? Was it to maximise profit at the risk of a Nazi dominated Europe/Asia/Africa? Is the situation of this Nazi empire feasable?