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fodd
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#61 Post by fodd » Wed 30 May, 2007 1:30 pm

right this is my view i dont think anything harry or anyone else has done is wrong because in the nineties the wars were being fought in bosnia etc and some of you olduns were fighting them wars so i can understand the hostilities. my generation are now fightting in afgan and iraq and in 10 or 20 years i couldnt imagine sitting there spinning dits with a former taliban soldier. just my view

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#62 Post by Greenronnie » Wed 30 May, 2007 2:58 pm

Gacik wrote:Please, just remember what NATO soldiers did to Iraqi prisoners.
They were unarmed, naked, hand tied, and they were beaten, "soldiers" pissed on them, and taking photos like at safari hunting.
What was that, tell me?
How the hell can you compare this piss taking, (which is no worse than what might go on in a Battalion to each other), to massacring thousands of unarmed civilians?? Which I am not accusing you of personally, by the way. But which did happen. I was witness to some of the results.

Plus lets compare what would have happened to the British soldiers if they had been caught by the enemy. Have a look on ogrish if you think that has any comparison.

Rogue Chef

#63 Post by Rogue Chef » Wed 30 May, 2007 3:56 pm

I've been thinking (dangerous I know) but are there any who wear anything other than white or black hats? Sort of dark white through to light black, let's call them various shades of grey hats? Just wondering what we should call them?

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#64 Post by La Langosta » Wed 30 May, 2007 4:03 pm

Good point Cheffy.
Grey hats you say???
Could only mean one thing....the Grey Mafia themselves
aka the QARANCs :P

Rogue Chef

#65 Post by Rogue Chef » Wed 30 May, 2007 4:12 pm

QARANCs you say? I don't know what you're talking about but it sounds very saucy!

I'm off for a QARANC!

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#66 Post by La Langosta » Wed 30 May, 2007 4:14 pm

Rogue Chef wrote: I'm off for a QARANC!
Don't go for one too often or you might go blind.
Makes a terrible mess of the curtains too :P :lol:

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#67 Post by harry hackedoff » Wed 30 May, 2007 4:17 pm

Sounds like two DALEKs having sex :oops:
They were unarmed, naked, hand tied, and they were beaten, "soldiers" pissed on them, and taking photos like at safari hunting.
Nowt wrong with that, it`s compulsary in most messes. Not quite on a par with raping whole villages and killing all the men though, is it?
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#68 Post by dwarfy » Wed 30 May, 2007 6:10 pm

Rogue Chef wrote:Who is this Dwarfy character? Who does he think he is? Comes on here spouting rational, reasonable and logical points of view. You better watch yourself sonny or you'll be on a fizzer! Whatever one of those is!
Rational,reasonable and logical?? Someone must have logged in under my name. :wink:

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#69 Post by harry hackedoff » Wed 30 May, 2007 6:25 pm

Notice he never mentioned good looking though :wink:
Don`t let it go to your head, Dwarfes :P
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Scooby

#70 Post by Scooby » Wed 30 May, 2007 6:27 pm

Harry did the 63rd Serbian Para's commit war crimes and if so, where, what did they do and when? I don't know if they did or not.

I also don't get how you can label an entire people and all its armed forces as being war criminals, I will say that if you think the other parties involved in that conflict were guilt free then you are mistaken.

To my knowledge all sides involved behaved very brutally towards each other. NATO also did not hit just military targets, I know that for a fact.

This does not excuse war crimes but all is not black and white as far as the former State of Yugoslavia is concerned unless you believe everything that our government and the Sun Newspaper tells us of course.

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#71 Post by harry hackedoff » Wed 30 May, 2007 6:53 pm

No, I don`t even read the Sun.
Serb Army, most of them, either actively took part in or helped facilitate the brutal repression of large parts of their civ population. You either accept that or you don`t. What would you like me to say? All is forgiven? Nothing is ever black or white, it`s all shades of grey. I`m sure that old Gacik is a top bloke, a great bloke to go ashore with, life and soul of the barby.
However, as a representative of the most brutal, murderous regime that Europe has seen since the Waffen SS he has no place on this site. I don`t care that he claims to have taken no part in the ethnic cleansing( i.e. wholesale murder) He was in their army. The same army that is being pursued by the International Court of den Hague for war crimes. I don`t label the Serbs as war criminals.
But you can feel free to have a pop at me mate.
To my knowledge all sides involved behaved very brutally towards each other. NATO also did not hit just military targets, I know that for a fact.
All sides was it?
You have an outstanding appreciation of current affairs, by the way.
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#72 Post by dwarfy » Wed 30 May, 2007 7:23 pm

harry hackedoff wrote:Notice he never mentioned good looking though :wink:
Don`t let it go to your head, Dwarfes :P
I did notice that actually, but then he had already made three things up about me already so a forth would have been pushing it. :o

Scooby, i dont think Harry actually labelled the entire Serb people as War Criminals but said, quite rightly, that at the very least any Serb Soldiers are guilty by association. Lets not forget they did ALL fight 'in' the same cause, maybe not 'for' the same cause if you see what i mean, but nevertheless they all fought for the same Serb Army under Milosovic. As i said before this is unfortunate for those who then become gulity by association as i believe there will have been many who were not the murderous basterds who committed the attrocities that took place. BUT, at the same time they cannot hide from what 'their' Army and to a degree 'thier' people did.

Therefore i agree totally that someone from such a background as Gacik's cannot expect to be greeted with open arms and command the same respect as those who are part of or were part of an Armed Force who have througout recent and fairly dated history conducted themselves with dignity, showing morals and compassion, even when, if required, for the enemy.

Those from other countries Armed Forces who deserve respect would get it, all be it with a little banter im sure, however the Serb Army and those associated with it do not fall under that category, even if many individuals themsleves may not have agreed or been an active part of the crimes that were commited.

dwarfy,

Scooby

#73 Post by Scooby » Wed 30 May, 2007 7:50 pm

Forgot you is in Australia Harry.

Well here in the UK our government plays bread and circuses a lot, tells us all kinds of stuff about countries not in their good books, then low and behold a few years later are best of pals with the regimes that a few years earlier were the devil, case in point Iraq, Libya to name but two.

In the first world war the British media claimed that German soldiers were putting babies on bayonets, some people believed that nodoubt.

As regards the Waffen SS. By the end of the Second World War around one million troops from most European countries were in the Waffen SS (aka Armed SS) agreed some elements of those Waffen SS Divisions did commit war crimes, but most did not.

I used to know an old boy who was in Das Reich (2nd Waffen SS Division) he got injured and was sent to France to recover, meantime most of his unit was wiped out in the east and when fit for duty again he was made to join 4th SS Polizei Division, which he was none too happy about as he thought them inferior to Das Reich and indulged in dubious duties.

I had a French teacher who was in the Polish Army then Waffen SS and then the Russian army, he hated all of them and not want to do it but apparently had little choice.

My point is that war hardens soldiers and sometimes they do things out of character or a forced to or else get a bullet in the head themselves.

As for Serbia being the most murderous regime in Europe since WW2 well maybe that prize should go to Russia who indulged in it's fair share of attrocities in Afghanistan, not that I blame them.

Before the war with Islam (Muslims or whatever you want to clothe it as) is over I wonder if we won't indulge in a fair bit of ethnic cleansing ourselves, I mean we are a two faced bunch of bastards at the best of times to be honest.

Gacik may indeed be a top bloke, I don't know and don't care, but I suspect you don't know either.

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#74 Post by harry hackedoff » Wed 30 May, 2007 8:02 pm

Dwarfes, thanks for your view mate but please dont feel the need to explain what I post. Even when sober, I can manage that myself :wink:
I don`t feel comfortable with binning people because they don`t conform/agree with certain viewpoints. I have been accused of this several times in the past. I actually counter these arguements from other moderators because it can be interpreted as censorship. Everyone has a voice and on here we are all equal, largely. As moderators we can edit posts, delete posts but we can`t bin members outright. I`ve argued for the last five years with Beast that we should have that ability and he agrees. It`s a software issue that stops us and therefore we have to refer to him and he isn`t on here everyday.
Given that, no single moderator ever says "bin dwarfey" and it just happens. In this case, three seperate moderators all agreed that the course we have taken is the right one. Bye Bye Gacik and bye bye Greyw4nk.
Please remember that although there are moderators on this site, Beast is the owner. And how many times have we disagreed, Beast, since 2002?
Er, hmmm, pi equals a b squared minus er, hmmm, how tall are you?
Never is the answer you were looking for. Despite what some think it looks like, moderators actually are moderate.
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Gacik

#75 Post by Gacik » Wed 30 May, 2007 11:39 pm

harry hackedoff wrote:...However, as a representative of the most brutal, murderous regime that Europe has seen since the Waffen SS he has no place on this site. I don`t care that he claims to have taken no part in the ethnic cleansing( i.e. wholesale murder) He was in their army. The same army that is being pursued by the International Court of den Hague for war crimes...
Croatians were also pursued by International Court of den Hague for war crimes, but now they are taking part in NATO Military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. How come is that? Why Croatian crimes can be forget and Serbian don't?
So what are you trying to say about Serbian Army? Our war crimes were more cruel then Croatian or Muslim war crimes so we deserve worse ?
Give me a break old man!
Stop hating Serbs so much, cause you think that you know so much, but reality is somehow different. You are just a misinformed and wanna be something else person!

If you didn't know, our officers are taking part in UN missions in Somalia for a few years. So if you think that we don't have a place here or somewhere near "civilized" NATO soldiers you are wrong.
Your opinion is really not so important as you want to think!

BTW, have you ever been in some war, Australian, or you just seen one on TV?
:drinking:


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