Abuse, Torture,Misstreatment?

[dootybooty]

The furore over miss treatment of prisoners in Iraq is getting boring. Since when was hooding and binding a prisoner abuse? Since when was sensory deprevation a no no in interogation? Since when was verbal intimidation cruel? Get real, if it is that bad why do we have thousands of people volunteering for programmes like SAS Are You Tough Enough. These people seem to think that 24 hours interogation is a learning experience.
A lot of us have been in situations that are the same or similar to Iraq, I am sure that most of us have slipped with a rifle but on occasion, to quote the Godfather, "it wasn't personal, it was business".
If Blair wanted to be friends with the Iraqis he should have sent the Police and Social Workers not Soldiers.
Political Correctness is killing off Common Sense.

[Jon]

Its all bollocks really. I think what the American prison guards was doing was a disgrace and sick behaviour and is going to land a lot of ground forces in trouble including British troops. The photos that the mirror printed must be fake - no one pisses in blobs!

Remember when Pakistani forces captured Ahmed Shiekh Mohammed, one of Bin Ladens top leiutenants, there was debate over whether he should be tortured or not to gain information. All the Civil Rights poeple said 'no, he must be given civil rights' or words to that effect. Did they not realise that by giving him rights may have led to the death of thousands of people. Its the same in Iraq - terrorists and guerrillas are captured and subjected to interrogation, yet thier rights are the main concern of these lefties, who dont care whether British or other coalition soldiers might become targets as a result of not geting the info out of them. Im not saying that we should strip them naked and give them to dogs, but a bit of roughness is needed.

Guantanemo Bay - they get shackled gagged and bagged - they're terrorists for christs sake! No one would give a dam if Ian Huntley got battered now would they?

[harry hackedoff]

Thank you once again Jon, for your well-reasoned, detailed and extremely well presented arguement
Like shite. Do you form your opinions at www.sunreader.com one wonders

Guantanemo Bay - they get shackled gagged and bagged - they're terrorists for christs sake

Are they, really.

[Guest]

once again, the do gooders strike, looking after the, "poor Defenceless Terrorist, and his cronies" civil and human rights, pity they weren`t there to inform the terrorists prior to their chosen targets were given the bad news, maybe they might have got the message, or better still, some of the shyte that was flying around due to the terrorists actions.

[harry hackedoff]

T, I couldn`t care less what El gets up to in his gaol . It just grips me to read vacuous shite about terrorists.

[Guest]

I`m with you there H, as soon as these people take up the "Terrorist" mantle, all their rights should be forfeited (spelling) shoot the farkin lot of em i say, why waste time and effort trying to get something out the shytes. Use them as Fig 11`s I say

[harry hackedoff]

I love the way you`re in touch with your "feminine aspect"
Sully and Gash, anytime you want to jump in, girls

[Frank S.]

First of all I don't think it's a British problem. I think we in the US have made this 'shitstorm' what it is.
I don't believe it should be a matter of public debate here (again the US), whether torture (vague term. Let's say physical coercion) should be used or not.
It is an issue to be decided and dealt with by professionals, and what appears to me to have happened is that the civilian leadership created certain conditions to shield itself from legal fall out. Meaning that what we are seeing both in Iraq and Afghanistan is a goatfcuk of Military Police (reservists!!!), Military Intelligence, CIA interrogators, civilian interrogators and get this: third nation parties.
On paper, Military Intelligence sorts through detainees to determine who should be interrogated and directs Military Police to segregate high value subjects from other parties. In other words, MI supercedes MP.
But what we've seen (that's in gen. Taguba's report), is that those other entities, particularly civilian contractors and third nation parties actually directed the MPs to prep detainees for interrogation.

So what we have are 20 year old reservists (whose training in handling detainees is next to nil) intersecting with interrogators, some of whom are outside the military and civilian chains of command.

I don't know how much you guys have seen so far about what went down at Abu Ghraib specifically, but it went far beyond S&M stuff and rough sex.

No matter. Exactly who was subjected to these interrogations is a big question. The Red Cross comes out with a figure of 90% of detainees having nothing to do with the insurgency. Let's say this is wildly optimistic, exactly how many are at Abu Ghraib simply for "driving while Iraqi"?

The difference between US and UK is that we in the US (here it comes) want to think we come from a higher moral plane. We think (well, a lot of people do) of America as a beacon of hope for the oppressed yearning for freedom and democracy. To paraphrase the colonel in Full Metal Jacket, "in every Ay-rab is an American crying to get out". And by God, if this requires some form of exorcism with dog leashes and chem lights up the a$$, that's what we'll do as our sacred duty. Those who won't convert are dead to us anyway.
(This last paragraph was not typed in front of a live audience and any resemblance to administrative dictum is purely unintentional).

[Jon]

Thank you once again Jon, for your well-reasoned, detailed and extremely well presented arguement
Like shite. Do you form your opinions at www.sunreader.com one wonders

Guantanemo Bay - they get shackled gagged and bagged - they're terrorists for christs sake

Are they, really.

You misunderstood me (I think). I dont think they deserve rights and should undergo torture to get info from them.

Surpirse that no Amnesty international person has complianed about the beheading of that American. AQ pricks should be burned alive.

[saffer]

Shouldnt we be setting an example to those we wish to give a democracy?
Burning people alive is not the example I see fit when dealing with these peolpe. The recent event has proven that I think.

Further more, what are the media trying to do, get ever soldier in the coalition killed?!

[Guest]

i said last year the war would be quick, 2-3 weeks, and the shyte that followed would take years to clear up, as soon as it is possible, the coalition forces and civvie workers should be pulled out and let them get on with it. on another note(and i`ve not checked all posts) Saddam is to be returned to the Iraqi people, and tried and executed. Ok, we know he`s guilty of a lot of crimes, but surely this would prejudice any trial by saying he`s going to be topped. Sully, over to you.

[dootybooty]

Is there anyone who served in Aden out there who remembers how we used to deal with Arabs? It seems to me that the Yanks have not mastered the simple fact that carrying bacon or Pork fat in an ammo pouch is much more effective the galloping around in armoured vehicles. Now the question is, in these supposedly enlightened times, is it torture or abuse or mistreatment to defile the dissies, as we had to call them, with pork by products.
If it is not, problem solved, dont beat em up, strip them hood them or put womens nicks on their heads, spray them with pork fat and fling a few dead pigs in the mosques, threaten to tie a few of the stroppy imams in pig skin. gallop through a mosque with your boots on, it takes them so long to go through ritual cleansing that they wouldn't have time for anything else.
Yes the yanks seem to have been heavy handed, but at the end of the day it is a war situation. Moral being don't take bloody happy snappies of you and your oppos playing with the opposition. No pic, no evidence,no court martial.

[JR]

dootybooty had the answer in one,couple of rashers of bacon and you had the B'stards standing to attention and singing God save the Queen.Bag of pork scrachings worked wonders.Aye JR

[dannyd]

Saddam is to be returned to the Iraqi people, and tried and executed. Ok, we know he`s guilty of a lot of crimes, but surely this would prejudice any trial by saying he`s going to be topped.

It could prejudice the trial, but I doubt he would be tried by Iraqi's alone. What trying Saddam in Iraq does do is confer legitimacy on the Iraqi regime who will be in charge of the trial. It also acts as a vote of confidence in them - we are basically saying that we trust them to conduct the trial.

This is a similar situation to that of Slobodan Milosevic. By not trying Milosevic in Serbia and instead choosing the Hague for the trial, what is effectively being said is that the Serbian's are not capable of trying of him. This lowers their standing in the international community and is harmful to those states that are trying to rebuild after a period of war (as Iraq is).

I think Saddam should be tried in Iraq. It will show to the Iraqi people that we have faith in their ability to do important tasks such as this & it will also make the proceedings and results of the trial more open to the Iraqi regime. The Nuremberg Trial after the Second World War was conducted in Germany and its openness went a long way to showing the German people the evils of the Nazi regime - thus decreasing the chances of a similar situation occurring in the future. I know that the situations of present day Iraq and post-war Germany are not the same, but there are parallels that can be drawn.

Also with regards to your point about the peace being much harder to win than the war, I couldn't agree more. The US often likes to cite post-war Germany as a case of successful US intervention & nation building. What seems to be forgotten is it took many years.

[barrybudden]

An American civilian was beheaded the other day and it was videoed. The footage was broadcast on American tv some stations thought it to graphic and only broadcast the sound. Now the civilised world is in uproar because of the execution of this young man.

Some of you may remember back in the 80's in Belfast during a certain funeral 2 young British soldiers strayed into the middle of it. They were taken from their car beaten, striped, taken to waste ground and executed by the IRA. This was also videoed by a helicopter, the fotage was never shown. One of the murders was arested in America about a year ago, he was OTR and had been living openly there. After Sept 11th their attitudes changed to Marxist terrorists. The British sought to extradite him but this was stoped by the American courts, he sucessfully argued that this was a politically movitaded crime. The descision is being appealed.

I'll leave you to make up your own minds.

I personally believe whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.