echelons

[lydiajames]

Hope someone can give me some info. What's the difference between A & B echelons? Are they the stores or the distributers of stores to the fighting units? What exactly is their role in an infantry battalion?

Cheers
Lydia

[harry hackedoff]

And don`t forget F echelon
Gravs or Remfs
And welcome aboard Lydia, mwa mwa

[lydiajames]

Hi Harry. I've never heard/read about F echelon. How many are there?

[anglo-saxon]

F Echelon is the "fighting" echelon, i.e., all of the personnel and resources directly involved in executing the combat mission. At the company/squadron/coy group/sqn gp/combat team level, this would be the company/sqn HQ and the rifle platoons (or equivalent). If the organization is a combat team, then it will consist either of an inf coy with att armr (minimum of a half sqn), or an armrd sqn with att inf, usually with FOOs/MFCs, Engr assets, etc. also attached to meet the end state of the CO's and Bde Comd's respective intentions.

The A Echelon contains the pers and resources to immediately support the F Ech. In the advance, the A Ech will normally be split between the A1 and A2 Ech's. The A1 being a "tactical bound" (as determined by the ground and threat) behind the F Ech and the A2 being loc at the unit level. The A1 Ech would include the transport sgt and perhaps the CP (containing the Coy 2i/c) if that is the SOP for that unit, along with immediate resupply capability of combat stores (ammo, rations, water fuel).

The coy/sqn A2 Ech's would be held at the unit (bn/regt) level and from there, the CQMS's/SQMS's would "push" cbt stores forward and "pull" other resources as requested.

The B Ech exists as the link from the unit to the brigade and is located with the other unit B Ech's at the Brigade Services Area (BSA). The B Ech is quite small and exists to get the respective commodities in place and pushed forward to the unit. This occurs in concert with the integral brigade assets and through the efforts of the brigade G3 and G4. Such things as troop replacement (reinforcements) would also use this "pipeline" as the means of getting to their intended destinations (the units).

Bear in mind that this echelon system exists in various guises at all levels all the way up to Corps and Army level.

A couple of interesting points to note are:

a. The Ech must be considered for protection on the advance. For instance, it is not much good having your ech taken out by en "layback" positions as your cbt stores will dry up very quickly and you will grind to a juddering halt/die in short order.

b. In the withdrawal, the ech can become a considerable obstacle to friendly forces if not thinned out properly as a preparatory move. The wheeled vehicles tend to clog high-speed routes quite effectively!

Hope this answers some of yor questions.

[lydiajames]

Thanks for the info, Anglo-Saxon.

If the F echelon is the Company HQ plus the rifle platoons, does this mean the A1, A2 and B echelons are attached to the companies from the battalion? Who commands the echelons at the company level, a member of the company or someone from battalion? Is the QM the overall commander of the echelons (minus F ech)? What qualification/training does he have to get this position?

[anglo-saxon]

Thanks for the info, Anglo-Saxon.

If the F echelon is the Company HQ plus the rifle platoons, does this mean the A1, A2 and B echelons are attached to the companies from the battalion?

No. The A1 belongs to the coy as does the A2. The A1 is just a tactiocal bound behind the F Ech, while the A2 is back at the Battalion A2 pushing commodities forward (via the CQMS). The B Ech is usually at the BSA (Brigade Services Area and consist sof the QM and his staff). The QM is often a "re-tread" (an officer (major) commissioned from the ranks (usually an ex-RQMS or RSM)), although in the Canadian system, he is usually just a logistics captain (entirely undesireable in my opinion).

Who commands the echelons at the company level, a member of the company or someone from battalion?

Depends on the unit SOPs. If it's a mechanized unit, the transport sgt will often look after the A1 Ech, even though the coy 2i/c is possibly also back there with his command post.

The A2 Ech is coordinated at battalion level, though it consists of the CQMSs and their respective staffs who push commodities forward. The RQMS may well coord this entity.

Is the QM the overall commander of the echelons (minus F ech)? What qualification/training does he have to get this position?

No. While the QM sets policy and organizes things in camp and during training, he is not in a position in the field to be in command as he could be up to 15 Km behind the lead elements of the battalion. The coy A Ech belongs the the company commander and is essentially controlled by the coy 2i/c through the CQMS. Hence, in the coy command post (CP), the coy 2i/c has three radio nets to monitor: The coy command net, the battalion command net and the battalion admin net. A call back to battalion to fill a certain need will result in the CQMS coming forward from the A2 ech with the stuff required.

This all sounds more complicated than it is. It is actually quite simple. Units will produce their own SOPs for such things but, by and large, they will be similar.

Where it gets a little more complicated is at the brigade level. The G3 (ops) and G4 (logistics/admin) cells cooperate to produce the plans for the brigade commander to provide the essential commodities (esp. combat supplies - ammo, rations, fuel, water) and services (mechanized recovery, kit/troop replacement, etc.) to the units. This is usually achieved by the establishment of ad hoc organizations called Forward Logistics Groups (FLGs), that provide commodity points and service areas well forward of the brigade "clag", but behind the units.

High ops tempo and a gung-ho commander can have adverse effects such as in Iraq, where the forward units got way ahead of the logistical tail, which then had to cover huge distances to try to support them. The consequence was the successful attack upon these log elements and capture of the vehicle crews as they had very little security.

[lydiajames]

Thanks again A-S for taking the time to answer all my questions. My knowledge of a military organisation is only from what I read in books but I guess people are only interested in the fighting units so its hard to get info about the logistics. I have some more questions here.

No. The A1 belongs to the coy as does the A2. The A1 is just a tactiocal bound behind the F Ech, while the A2 is back at the Battalion A2 pushing commodities forward (via the CQMS). The B Ech is usually at the BSA (Brigade Services Area and consist sof the QM and his staff).

Does that mean a Staff/Colour Sgt spends most of the time away from his coy?

Depends on the unit SOPs. If it's a mechanized unit, the transport sgt will often look after the A1 Ech, even though the coy 2i/c is possibly also back there with his command post.

The A2 Ech is coordinated at battalion level, though it consists of the CQMSs and their respective staffs who push commodities forward. The RQMS may well coord this entity.

The coy 2i/c and the CQMS have their own staffs? Are these staffs part of the coy? I thought the coy HQ has about 6-7 men only.

A call back to battalion to fill a certain need will result in the CQMS coming forward from the A2 ech with the stuff required.

Who delivers the supplies to the coy, the CQMS himself or the MT platoon?

Is it true that the Army light infantry battalions will adopt the RM commando 21 organisation?
According to the an ex-RM website, the logistic coy has 2 identical A1 and A2 echelons, what does this means?

[anglo-saxon]

Does that mean a Staff/Colour Sgt spends most of the time away from his coy?

Yes.

The coy 2i/c and the CQMS have their own staffs? Are these staffs part of the coy? I thought the coy HQ has about 6-7 men only.

Again, it depends on the configuration and type of unit.

The OC will have the requisite people to make the company function and to assist him with command. At a minimum, this will be the Company sergeant major and a number of signallers and drivers. He may also (in the CF at least) have a company weapons det and a coy observation det.

The coy 2i/c will have a couple os signaller/drivers to assist him in the CP.

The CQMS will have a senior combat storeman as his 2i/c (probably a Cpl in the Brit Army or a MCpl in the CF), plus a couple of storemen/drivers.

Who delivers the supplies to the coy, the CQMS himself or the MT platoon?

Yes, usually the CQ himself. That's his primary function: To see that the F Ech gets the supplies it needs.

Is it true that the Army light infantry battalions will adopt the RM commando 21 organisation?
According to the an ex-RM website, the logistic coy has 2 identical A1 and A2 echelons, what does this means?

No idea. I'm not current on Brit "military doings". My personal opinion, however, is that it would be highly unlikely (from both a practical and political perspective).

[exvmremf]

To find B echelon just follow the smell of the bacon butties coming from the VM's mother wagon.

[anglo-saxon]

I swear bacon butties, egg banjos and strong rosie were all invented by a compassionate god taking pity on piss wet, knackered squaddies. Truly things of beauty!

[lydiajames]

The CQMS will have a senior combat storeman as his 2i/c (probably a Cpl in the Brit Army or a MCpl in the CF), plus a couple of storemen/drivers.

Senior means he has a lot of experience as a storeman, right?

My personal opinion, however, is that it would be highly unlikely (from both a practical and political perspective).

Can you elaborate on this. Why is it not practical? Somewhere in this forum I read the air assault was not so effective in the gulf war because the helicopters were vulnerable to obsolete weapons and the paras were also too lightly armed to do any real fighting so they ended up guarding the pipelines while the RM went to fight the Iraqis together with the armoured battle groups. I also read about the army wanting to take over the RM, or was that to copy them, because they were better organised. I hope I didn't offend any paras with this statement.

[anglo-saxon]

Senior means he has a lot of experience as a storeman, right?

A-S: It simply means he's a well-qualified, switched-on NCO who's been around the block and knows what he's doing.

Can you elaborate on this. Why is it not practical? Somewhere in this forum I read the air assault was not so effective in the gulf war because the helicopters were vulnerable to obsolete weapons and the paras were also too lightly armed to do any real fighting so they ended up guarding the pipelines while the RM went to fight the Iraqis together with the armoured battle groups. I also read about the army wanting to take over the RM, or was that to copy them, because they were better organised. I hope I didn't offend any paras with this statement.

A-S: This is just my opinion. For one thing, the RM are higher grade of troops than LI. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing shabby about the LI, it's just that the RM were designed to do harder and less orthodox jobs than line infantry, so they do! In my opinion, to try to meld two such units together demands one of three approaches: 1. The standard of the LI must be heightened to that of the RM. This would be costly in both terms of resources and manpower and many would fall by the wayside in the process. 2. Reduce the standard of the RM to that of the LI. This would most certainly be an exercise in fruitlessness as well as a damned shame! While the bean counters would be rubbing their hands with glee, the operational effectiveness of HM Forces would have taken a significant nosedive! 3. Place the RM under the Army as a separate component. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever as the RM is a separate component of the Navy right now and so it would be simply making change for change's sake.

In my own humble opinion, such an entity as the RM thrives on its reputation, its proven track record, its history, and its espirit de corps. It is not alone in this; there are many other outfits whose effectiveness is similarly enhanced by such professional pride. To deliberately detract from this is nothing short of meddlesome sabotage of a unit and the conscious degradation of a nation's defense capability.

I believe and hope that the RM have enough sway in Whitehall to avoid any such stupidity, if for no other reason than if the RM take such a huge hit, then no one is safe!

Again, this is just me waxing philosophical.

Cheers,

[lydiajames]

Maybe you got me wrong there A-S. I didn't mean for the infantry to become commandos or vice versa. I'm just curious about the change in their RM battalion organisation because it is different from the conventional infantry ones in the British or any other armies. I mean they have one whole company for logistics and the fire support distributed to the fighting companies. This is more like the Armd Recce Regiments orbat in the British Army where they have a GW Troop in each squadron.

Any advantages in this kind of orbat? Is it so that the companies are more independent? But I can see only 2 rifle companies supported by 2 fire support coys so that means only 2 powerful sub-units instead of 3 when there were 3 equal companies with the attached fire support (anti tanks, mortars, MG...) from battalion. If I'm not mistaken, the reason why most units (brigade, battalions, coys, platoons) breaks down into 3 sub units is because they send 2 to attack while 1 is in reserve to support if any of the front 2 is weakened or to take advantage if there are any breakthrough.

any comments?