I'm a bit confused after doing some reading about nuclear politics which started with an article about Israel's nuclear capabilities and subsequent (unrelated) articles which mentioned the HMS Conqueror.
In the first article, points were made to support the efficiency of nuclear deterrence with a few examples. One was the deployment of the nuclear armed HMS Conqueror to the Falklands, which resulted in the US finally providing assistance to the UK in order to avoid nuclear escalation to the conflict.
Yet, I also read an article which qualifies the Conqueror as nuclear powered but makes no mention of nuclear missiles on board.
The Conqueror was denominated in maybe two other articles as a hunter-killer sub, and while I know there exist nuclear tipped torpedoes, no mention of those were made.
So my question would be whether the HMS Conqueror was in fact dispatched to the Falklands as a sort of message to the US that the UK was dead serious about winning this conflict even at the price of using nukes, which forced the US' hand (as the original article suggested), or was this argument erroneous in more ways than one?
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HMS Conqueror
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Sticky Blue
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I can't find anything about her carrying Nuclear Weapons (and can't remember anything about her having any onboard either) but she was nuclear powered:
The scene was now set, and on 2 May, Conqueror became the first nuclear powered submarine to fire in anger when she launched three torpedos at the Belgrano, two of which struck the ship and exploded. Twenty minutes later, the ship was sinking rapidly and was abandoned by the crew. The two escorting destroyers fled the scene under fear of further attack.
The scene was now set, and on 2 May, Conqueror became the first nuclear powered submarine to fire in anger when she launched three torpedos at the Belgrano, two of which struck the ship and exploded. Twenty minutes later, the ship was sinking rapidly and was abandoned by the crew. The two escorting destroyers fled the scene under fear of further attack.
Drums beating, colours flying and bayonets fixed...
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Frank S.
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I had the suspicion that the author made a leap of reason of sorts, confusing "nuclear powered" with "nuclear armed", which in turn detracts from his other points.
As well his implication was that the HMS Conqueror was dispatched later in the conflict, which I cannot corroborate.
It's difficult sometimes to separate fact from, well, fiction...
As well his implication was that the HMS Conqueror was dispatched later in the conflict, which I cannot corroborate.
It's difficult sometimes to separate fact from, well, fiction...
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Sticky Blue
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There is no mention of this on any other sites I've found either, the tilte of the page is During the Falklands Conflict A team from Argentina arrived in Spain with the intent of blowing up the Rock (Gibraltar)
http://www.gibnet.com/texts/falkwar.htm
From "Panorama" 10th October 1983
How Argentina tried to blow up the Rock
By Simon Winchester, Robin Morgan and Isobel Hilton
The Sunday Times
AT THE height of the Falklands war, a well-equipped Argentine underwater sabotage team slipped secretly into Spain and made its way towards Gibraltar. Its aim was to blow up vital ammunition and fuel dump in the colony, and sink any British warships in the harbour.
But according to senior British military and intelligence officials, the Spanish authorities arrested the team of four men in a small town some five miles from the border. And in a hitherto undisclosed gesture of goodwill to the British Government, Madrid ordered the four to be deported back to Buenos Aires.
The decision caused a serious diplomatic rift between Spain and the then military junta in Argentina, at a time when Spain was ostensibly giving moral support to the Buenos Aires regime. The planned raid on the strategically vital colony would have caused havoc to the Falkland task force supply lines. Many lives among the 34,000 strong civilian and military population of the Rock would have been lost.
A prime target was the fuel dump which task force ships used to top up en route for the South Atlantic. Huge storage tanks carved out of the rock lie just a few yards off Williams Way - one of 32 mile of road and tunnel driven through the mountain by miners during the Second World War. They are guarded normally by just one man.
The more heavily-guarded Admiralty magazine, connected by one of those tunnels to the dockyard, contains a vast stockpile of ammunition including missiles, torpedoes and naval nuclear weapons. That stockpile became a vital source during the conflict as arsenals in Britain emptied fast. Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships called in at Gibraltar almost daily to take ammunition and fuel on board. It was there, early in April, that the nuclear-powered submarine HMS Conqueror received the Mark Eight torpedoes that sank the Argentinian cruiser, General Belgrano.
Secondary targets identified by the team of saboteurs were any warships in Gibraltar, and the airfield, which was an important bridge between Britain and Ascension Island. RAF Hercules planes flew daily to refuel and pick up supplies to be dropped by parachute to the task force.
Details of the raid have come from a variety of highly-placed sources. They include a senior army officer in another British colony who was ordered to increase security when the planned raid on Gibraltar was discovered. A high-ranking officer with access to intelligence information of the affair independently confirmed to us the Argentinian team's plans.
Members of the intelligence community itself have given us further information. The Foreign Office. however, says it knows nothing of the incident.
But according to our sources in London, and others in Buenos Aires, the team of four civilian acting under the control of the Argentine Navy, arrived at Madrid's Barajas airport early last May. Their mission was to purchase arms, limpet mines, plastic explosives and under-water swimming gear - all freely available off the shelf from arms dealer's in Spain. Then they were to make their way south to the border town of La Lineá.
They were to penetrate the colony's defences - preferably by swimming the one mile from the La Lineá docks to the Gibraltar dockyard - and attack the oil storage depot, the Admiralty magazine, shipping, including the Gibraltar guardship, the frigate HMS Ariadne, which was known to be regularly bcrthed in the dock.
But the four were intercepted by the Spanish authorities, probably the army, in the town of San Roque. According to British sources, the four men were fully equipped for their expedition, and were stripped of arms and equipment that included the limpet mines and high explosives.
They were detained for a few days and then, despite protests from Buenos Aires, were deported back to the Argentine capital.
It is clear that British signal intelligence became aware of the arrival of the team almost as soon as the men disembarked from their scheduled Aerolineas Argcntinas flight at Madrid. Messages were flashed from London both to the governor of Gibraltar, General William Jackson, and to the governors and commanders-in-chief of. other overseas military bases thought vulnerable to attack.
Precautions had already been taken in Gibraltar, largely because the colonial authorities had been warned - ironically, in the circumstances - of a possible Spanish attack aimed at recovering the peninsula during the confusion of the Falklands operations. General Jackson had arranged for day and night guards by men of the then Gibraltar garrison - the 1st Battalion the Staffordshire Regiment - and for naval "anti-swimmer" teams to be on constant alert. Patrol boats operated by the RAF Regiment were also on duty.
After the emergency message about the arrival of the Argentine sabotage team, "every inch" of the Rock was placed under guard, a military source said.
There was considerable confidence that the colony could be defended against a Spanish attack and equal assurance that, as the same officer put it, "we would have fished any saboteurs out of the water before they could get within sniffing distance of a ship."
In other colonies and overseas army bases - particularly Cyprus and Hong Kong - the news of the team's arrival in Spain triggered a series of security operations. Officers in Hong Kong were briefed secret-ly, within hours of the detection of the team's arrival in Madrid, by the local representative of the Joint Services Intelligence Staff For the next two weeks all available manpower was put on the lookout for possible arrivals from Argentina.
"It would have been quite simple for them to have come in here while our backs were turned," commented one Hong Kong staff officer. "But after the attempt in Spain we made sure we were well battened down."
Because of a reluctance by the intelligence community to comment on the incident some aspects remain a mystery.
http://www.gibnet.com/texts/falkwar.htm
From "Panorama" 10th October 1983
How Argentina tried to blow up the Rock
By Simon Winchester, Robin Morgan and Isobel Hilton
The Sunday Times
AT THE height of the Falklands war, a well-equipped Argentine underwater sabotage team slipped secretly into Spain and made its way towards Gibraltar. Its aim was to blow up vital ammunition and fuel dump in the colony, and sink any British warships in the harbour.
But according to senior British military and intelligence officials, the Spanish authorities arrested the team of four men in a small town some five miles from the border. And in a hitherto undisclosed gesture of goodwill to the British Government, Madrid ordered the four to be deported back to Buenos Aires.
The decision caused a serious diplomatic rift between Spain and the then military junta in Argentina, at a time when Spain was ostensibly giving moral support to the Buenos Aires regime. The planned raid on the strategically vital colony would have caused havoc to the Falkland task force supply lines. Many lives among the 34,000 strong civilian and military population of the Rock would have been lost.
A prime target was the fuel dump which task force ships used to top up en route for the South Atlantic. Huge storage tanks carved out of the rock lie just a few yards off Williams Way - one of 32 mile of road and tunnel driven through the mountain by miners during the Second World War. They are guarded normally by just one man.
The more heavily-guarded Admiralty magazine, connected by one of those tunnels to the dockyard, contains a vast stockpile of ammunition including missiles, torpedoes and naval nuclear weapons. That stockpile became a vital source during the conflict as arsenals in Britain emptied fast. Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships called in at Gibraltar almost daily to take ammunition and fuel on board. It was there, early in April, that the nuclear-powered submarine HMS Conqueror received the Mark Eight torpedoes that sank the Argentinian cruiser, General Belgrano.
Secondary targets identified by the team of saboteurs were any warships in Gibraltar, and the airfield, which was an important bridge between Britain and Ascension Island. RAF Hercules planes flew daily to refuel and pick up supplies to be dropped by parachute to the task force.
Details of the raid have come from a variety of highly-placed sources. They include a senior army officer in another British colony who was ordered to increase security when the planned raid on Gibraltar was discovered. A high-ranking officer with access to intelligence information of the affair independently confirmed to us the Argentinian team's plans.
Members of the intelligence community itself have given us further information. The Foreign Office. however, says it knows nothing of the incident.
But according to our sources in London, and others in Buenos Aires, the team of four civilian acting under the control of the Argentine Navy, arrived at Madrid's Barajas airport early last May. Their mission was to purchase arms, limpet mines, plastic explosives and under-water swimming gear - all freely available off the shelf from arms dealer's in Spain. Then they were to make their way south to the border town of La Lineá.
They were to penetrate the colony's defences - preferably by swimming the one mile from the La Lineá docks to the Gibraltar dockyard - and attack the oil storage depot, the Admiralty magazine, shipping, including the Gibraltar guardship, the frigate HMS Ariadne, which was known to be regularly bcrthed in the dock.
But the four were intercepted by the Spanish authorities, probably the army, in the town of San Roque. According to British sources, the four men were fully equipped for their expedition, and were stripped of arms and equipment that included the limpet mines and high explosives.
They were detained for a few days and then, despite protests from Buenos Aires, were deported back to the Argentine capital.
It is clear that British signal intelligence became aware of the arrival of the team almost as soon as the men disembarked from their scheduled Aerolineas Argcntinas flight at Madrid. Messages were flashed from London both to the governor of Gibraltar, General William Jackson, and to the governors and commanders-in-chief of. other overseas military bases thought vulnerable to attack.
Precautions had already been taken in Gibraltar, largely because the colonial authorities had been warned - ironically, in the circumstances - of a possible Spanish attack aimed at recovering the peninsula during the confusion of the Falklands operations. General Jackson had arranged for day and night guards by men of the then Gibraltar garrison - the 1st Battalion the Staffordshire Regiment - and for naval "anti-swimmer" teams to be on constant alert. Patrol boats operated by the RAF Regiment were also on duty.
After the emergency message about the arrival of the Argentine sabotage team, "every inch" of the Rock was placed under guard, a military source said.
There was considerable confidence that the colony could be defended against a Spanish attack and equal assurance that, as the same officer put it, "we would have fished any saboteurs out of the water before they could get within sniffing distance of a ship."
In other colonies and overseas army bases - particularly Cyprus and Hong Kong - the news of the team's arrival in Spain triggered a series of security operations. Officers in Hong Kong were briefed secret-ly, within hours of the detection of the team's arrival in Madrid, by the local representative of the Joint Services Intelligence Staff For the next two weeks all available manpower was put on the lookout for possible arrivals from Argentina.
"It would have been quite simple for them to have come in here while our backs were turned," commented one Hong Kong staff officer. "But after the attempt in Spain we made sure we were well battened down."
Because of a reluctance by the intelligence community to comment on the incident some aspects remain a mystery.
Drums beating, colours flying and bayonets fixed...
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Sorry to jump in so late on this topic. I read a book a while back (and can't remember what it was called) which talked about the Falklands crisis and the deployment of HMS Conquerer.
It was an SSN, not an SSBN, so had no nuclear weapons, just normal torpedoes.
The Argentine navy had a reasonable surface fleet but no ASW capability to speak of. One submarine could eliminate their whole navy and there was little the Argentines could do about it. The only significance of nuclear power was that it made Conquerer virtually undetectable by the Argentines, and it could stay on station as long as necessary to do the job.
In 1978 the previous Argentine government had threatened to sieze the Falklands and David Owen (foreign minister at the time) simply notified them that an SSN had been deployed to the area. Game over.
As the crisis unfolded in early 1982, in the grip of defence cuts, the MOD didn't think it was worth the cost (they'd already encouraged Buenos Aires by announcing the withdrawal of HMS Endurance). Even the Foreign Office had the sense to moan about that.
Worse still, when it was finally sent to the area in early 1982 (but before the diplomatic discussions ran out), Conquerer pretty much immediately found and shadowed the Argentine aircraft carrier flagship. The cabinet "wets" overruled Maggie and ordered it to back off, for fear of upsetting the Argentines; when war became inevitable the Argentine naval air arm was safely out of range. After the Belgrano was sunk, the Argentine Navy wisely kept their ships out of harm's way and flew their planes from the shore.
Interestingly, I see that the MOD are phasing out Harrier FA2. Until we get our big carriers, if our fleet needs fighter support we are going to ask our allies for help. Never learn, do they?
It was an SSN, not an SSBN, so had no nuclear weapons, just normal torpedoes.
The Argentine navy had a reasonable surface fleet but no ASW capability to speak of. One submarine could eliminate their whole navy and there was little the Argentines could do about it. The only significance of nuclear power was that it made Conquerer virtually undetectable by the Argentines, and it could stay on station as long as necessary to do the job.
In 1978 the previous Argentine government had threatened to sieze the Falklands and David Owen (foreign minister at the time) simply notified them that an SSN had been deployed to the area. Game over.
As the crisis unfolded in early 1982, in the grip of defence cuts, the MOD didn't think it was worth the cost (they'd already encouraged Buenos Aires by announcing the withdrawal of HMS Endurance). Even the Foreign Office had the sense to moan about that.
Worse still, when it was finally sent to the area in early 1982 (but before the diplomatic discussions ran out), Conquerer pretty much immediately found and shadowed the Argentine aircraft carrier flagship. The cabinet "wets" overruled Maggie and ordered it to back off, for fear of upsetting the Argentines; when war became inevitable the Argentine naval air arm was safely out of range. After the Belgrano was sunk, the Argentine Navy wisely kept their ships out of harm's way and flew their planes from the shore.
Interestingly, I see that the MOD are phasing out Harrier FA2. Until we get our big carriers, if our fleet needs fighter support we are going to ask our allies for help. Never learn, do they?
The Government has just admited that nuclear weapons (nuke depth charges) were on ships depoloyed to the Falkland Islands, not sure if they were on any subs though. The Argies are asking for an apology from HM Government (Hahahahahaaaa), sour grapes from a bunch of losers?
Argentina seeks nuclear apology
BBC | 12/07/03
Argentina's president has demanded that Britain apologise for sending warships to the 1982 Falklands war with nuclear weapons on board.
"The UK must ask our forgiveness," President Nestor Kirchner said.
Britain admitted on Friday that some of the ships it sent to the Falkland Islands carried nuclear weapons.
But the UK Ministry of Defence said the arms were transferred to other vessels before entering regional territorial waters and none was intended for use.
Nuclear worries
Mr Kirchner said relations with Britain had not been damaged, but Argentina would stand firm in its demand "for precise and complete information".
"We need those who are part of the government of the other country to have the character to ask the forgiveness that is due," Mr Kirchner said.
Argentine officials said they wanted to know if there was any nuclear material on the sea bed in the South Atlantic - a reference to HMS Sheffield and several other British ships which were sunk by Argentina's forces during the conflict.
In its statement on Friday, the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) said a decision not to use the weapons was made before the ships left port.
But they were kept on board because to remove them would take 36 hours, delaying the Royal Navy deployment to the south Atlantic.
In fact, the weapons did not reach the combat zone as they were removed on the journey and transferred to ships returning to the UK, a MoD spokesman said.
The weapons never entered the territorial waters of the Falklands Islands or any South American country, Reuters news agency quoted a MoD spokesman as saying.
Rumours about the weapons first surfaced after the war ended, but until now they have never been verified.
Argentina invaded the British territory of the Falkland Islands in the south Atlantic on 2 April 1982.
In response, Britain sent a number of warships, many of which routinely carried nuclear weapons at the time.
Argentina seeks nuclear apology
BBC | 12/07/03
Argentina's president has demanded that Britain apologise for sending warships to the 1982 Falklands war with nuclear weapons on board.
"The UK must ask our forgiveness," President Nestor Kirchner said.
Britain admitted on Friday that some of the ships it sent to the Falkland Islands carried nuclear weapons.
But the UK Ministry of Defence said the arms were transferred to other vessels before entering regional territorial waters and none was intended for use.
Nuclear worries
Mr Kirchner said relations with Britain had not been damaged, but Argentina would stand firm in its demand "for precise and complete information".
"We need those who are part of the government of the other country to have the character to ask the forgiveness that is due," Mr Kirchner said.
Argentine officials said they wanted to know if there was any nuclear material on the sea bed in the South Atlantic - a reference to HMS Sheffield and several other British ships which were sunk by Argentina's forces during the conflict.
In its statement on Friday, the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) said a decision not to use the weapons was made before the ships left port.
But they were kept on board because to remove them would take 36 hours, delaying the Royal Navy deployment to the south Atlantic.
In fact, the weapons did not reach the combat zone as they were removed on the journey and transferred to ships returning to the UK, a MoD spokesman said.
The weapons never entered the territorial waters of the Falklands Islands or any South American country, Reuters news agency quoted a MoD spokesman as saying.
Rumours about the weapons first surfaced after the war ended, but until now they have never been verified.
Argentina invaded the British territory of the Falkland Islands in the south Atlantic on 2 April 1982.
In response, Britain sent a number of warships, many of which routinely carried nuclear weapons at the time.
You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!
A government report has stated that there were nuclear depth charges on some of the RN ships while en route for the South Atlantic and these were transferred at the Accession Islands onto ships heading back to England, so there were no atomic weapons in there South Atlantic. Personally as far as I am concerned when you fight you fight to win regardless and this government should tell the Argies to get stuffed.
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Frank S.
- Guest
Yeah that makes sense. The article which I mentioned in my first post inferred that the Royal Navy actually used the presence of the nukes to deter the Argentines, but it appears the Argies didn't know about it.
This jibes with your posts and contradicts the article's assertion.
But what did the US know, I wonder?
This jibes with your posts and contradicts the article's assertion.
But what did the US know, I wonder?
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Eagle_Giuli
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hi
Hi, well,i'm argentine, argie as you say. No problem, i want to say what that is just another ridiculous reclaim from my puppet'government... so the belgrano incident as the nuclear weapons carriyng wasn't relevant in the war's development. That was a WAR, we have did the same,if we could do that. the fact is that argentine is not a warrior people and alll that stuffs were new to us, UK was beggining a war while we were opening the Pandora's box. Finally, the Conqueror is definitively a SSN, powered by nuclear energy but not carried with nuclear weapons, at moins, i believe that 
... Excuse me by my english, it's the worst, but with the time i'll learn it.
... Excuse me by my english, it's the worst, but with the time i'll learn it.-
harry hackedoff
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Hola!
hey la recepción del amigo a bordo, nosotros mordedura del don`t y nosotros dan la bienvenida(bienvenido?) a amigos de la Argentina
Your English is better than mine, amigo
Welcome aboard, we don`t bite much and we welcome posters from the Argentine
Hunter killer subs are not equiped with nuke torpedoes mate. They don`t need to be.
hey la recepción del amigo a bordo, nosotros mordedura del don`t y nosotros dan la bienvenida(bienvenido?) a amigos de la Argentina
Your English is better than mine, amigo
Welcome aboard, we don`t bite much and we welcome posters from the Argentine
Hunter killer subs are not equiped with nuke torpedoes mate. They don`t need to be.
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HI!!!
Hi, how're you? thanks by your welcome. I cannot believe that i'm speaking about the falklands war in a...british forum, but i'd believed that it could be a great idea. at moins to me, it results very important wha t are the british thinks about this old war, to you that was just a little conflict,i think, but to us, that was our war, the only war that we've fighted at the XX century. I wonder that mi info can be useful to you or, at least, different, thanks again and i'm sorry by my english, don't be afraid to make me corrections. well, what a tedious argie... , about the conqueror, his only presence at the south atlantic made that the argentine fleet (ARA), it had to return at your bases, a sub with these characteristics was almost indetectable to a conventional force. Other ships they'd followed the Belgrano's way. We had a respectable navy, with capable crews; but just for the regionals conflicts. About the incident with the nuclear weapons, i think that UK never had used these.
, about the conqueror, his only presence at the south atlantic made that the argentine fleet (ARA), it had to return at your bases, a sub with these characteristics was almost indetectable to a conventional force. Other ships they'd followed the Belgrano's way. We had a respectable navy, with capable crews; but just for the regionals conflicts. About the incident with the nuclear weapons, i think that UK never had used these.