The Middle East... is there any solution?

[Mike]

I don't have the answer to that and I doubt that anyone else has either......However I have been scurrying about the net and come up with some interesting figures about the Israelis and the Americans.
For instance: First remember that Israel ranks 16th wealthiest country in the world above Ireland and Spain.
Its population is 6m of which are 182,000 illegal settlers on the west bank.20,000 illegal settlers in the Golan Heights, 7,000 Illegal settlers in the Gaza strip, though I guess they'll be leaving by the bus load soon, and finally 7,00 in East Jerusalem..
Israel's GNP is more that of the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, ,Jordan and the Palestine territories.
The United States, since 1949 has given the country more than $134 billion, since 1997 the US has given guaranteed grants of $5.5billion.......do not forget that the US is also funding the Israeli forces to the tune of $2.16 billion
My question to any American on this forum is....What the Heck have the Israelis got on your country?
I find it hard to see why the rest of the world, bar the US a few others cant see what is going on in the middle east and that the problems there will never cease as long as the Israelis and Palestinians are at each others throats. I also believe that most can not see Israelis right to the whole of Palestine.... If and when this fracas is solved so will the problem of terrorism diminish!
All of the above can be verified... PM get the scours
Any incoming

[Frank S.]

A quick search shows some figures in this article I dug up:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... tudy_x.htm

Some extract:
[...] • 47% of Jews who married since 1996 were married to a non-Jew in 2001, up from 43% in 1990. Among all Jews currently married, 31% have a non-Jewish spouse.

• Almost all (96%) of children in households with two Jewish parents are being raised Jewish. But in homes with only one Jewish parent, 33% are.

• 46% belong to a synagogue and less than one in three adults participate in other forms of Jewish community life.

The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America responded, calling assimilation and intermarriage "the greatest threats facing the Jewish community today." It plans increased outreach to Jewish youth. "We must get to them before we lose them," said Zale Newman of the union's National Conference of Synagogue Youth.

Not all the report's findings were grim. "It's a mixed picture," says survey project manager Lorraine Blass. U.S. Jews exhibit "considerable strength and actual intensification in Jewish education, culture and tradition."

For example, most Jews observe major religious holidays: 77% hold or attend a Passover seder; 72% light Hanukkah candles; 59% fast on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement).

Many feel close ties to Israel: 35% say they have visited at least once; 63% say they are emotionally attached to Israel.

And most Jewish children (71%) ages 6-17 are enrolled in formal Jewish schooling. [...]

The subject of US-Israel relations and attitudes is difficult to get a hold on. Some US military web forums tend to display fierce support of Israel's current policies, something which increased markedly since 9/11.
Many comments made do not seem all too rational.
There is a sort of bloodlust which I think started with ferociously partisan politics during Reagan's second term and gained momentum under Clinton, until 9/11 provided the spark.
This is not to say however that these forums are representative of the majority of the military. In the same manner, current Bush policies do not necessarily correspond to most republicans' views.
There are certain topics which remain taboo, such as predominance of Jewish personalities in the judiciary, financial and entertainment sectors. Yet the article above does reflect a reluctance on the part of Jewish American to fully integrate into American culture (whatever that may be).

There's also reluctance to broach the topic of separation of church and state in a serious manner. Beyond the occasional Supreme Court review of prayers in school, the inclusion of the words 'under God' in the pledge of allegiance, there is zero mainstream debate as to what it means to have an evangelical christian in the oval office running an ideological war.
A story came out today [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3199212.stm] about Lt. General Boykin, who made statements in evangelical churches such as this: " "Well you know what I knew, that my God was bigger than his, I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol." [talking about Mohamed Aidid in Somalia]
He told audiences that terrorists hated America because it was a nation of Christian believers and that the enemy in the war on terrorism was Satan.

The Pentagon is defending him. Said Rumsfeld: "We're a free people. And that's the wonderful thing about our country."

Likewise there is no debate in the mainstream as to the nature of Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz' ties to the Israeli establishment (partcularly the Likud party), which could be characterized as bordering on treason.

I suspect the same might be said of the situation in Israel, where not everyone agrees with Sharon and his entourage. I have very little information and knowledge of Israeli opinion, but I suspect it may well be as 'polarized' as ours is here in America.
If and when a more balanced majority of opinion prevails in Israel, there might be some glimmer of hope for a resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
More informed people will hopefully weigh in on this and correct my assumptions where they are false.
For the time being, permanent war is in the best interests of those minorities in power in Israel and Washington, and continuous explosions drown out more 'moderate' voices and serious contemplation of the situation we are in.
It appears clear that there is a strong desire to effect regime change in Syria, Iran, Lebanon, the Sudan and Somalia.
It also appears clear that Israel is working in tandem (maybe leading?) with the US to achieve these goals, though what exactly will be achieved from this remains the stuff of mad dreams.

I don't know what the solution would be but it seems to me that Israel is not only making no effort to control its influx of new immigrants, it is placing them illegally on territories it barely controls by overwhelming force.

[Whitey]

Well this may seem odd, but I think the Jews need a place to call home. I just think the land they are so attatched to is overcrowded. Like I'd like to live in L.A., so would alot of people who like the beach, mountians, weather and movies. However the fact is L.A. ain't big enough for everyone, so what happens? Well L.A. sprawls over into places that aren't L.A. and pisses off people who had previously not been in the rat race. Israel isn't big enough in land mass to house all the Jews comfortably, so Jewish settlers get land that wasn't in the agreement and gaurd it with their military, many people don't realize this in America. Like I said, they need a country, but what do you do? There isn't an easy answer. I guess we could assist them in removing more arabs, but is that right? And 50 years from now, would they need more land? I would vote to give them NY for a homeland, throw in Nj, and maybe a carribean island for a vacation area to get away from the cold. Most jews I know are good folks, most arabs I know are good folks, even around each other they get along for the most part. I guess the question is, what do they want? Besides "Peace", I mean how much land do they need to be satisfied?
I feel sorry for both sides. Looks like the innocent people on both sides suffer for the extremist acts from both groups minority dissenters.
The answer to the Middle East will be found when we find the answer to how far space goes out.

[Mike]

Gentlemen...thank you for your reply, I am sure there will be more.
Its interesting that although your points and views differ the outcome is the same. I have no argument with the Jew, its the Israelis that I feel are in the wrong place.
As for them to have nowhere to go, Tough!I guess its like neighbours who buy identical houses, one is quite happy, the other, later, has 8 kids, cant accommodate them and demands his neighbour takes them in....I do not see that as fair.....
Before anyone starts off with the "Well its all the British's Fault...If you hadn't in 1949...Etc. Etc. My question to them is. For how long do I /we have to take the rap for the actions of our grandfathers, Lets face it we do not expect the Modern Germany to do so

[BenChug]

The solution is simply to remove the Jews or the Arabs as they both bitterly hate each other and will not listen and hardly any of them even remeber why. This goes back thousands of years, when do land claims from a 1,000 years ago become void? There is the law, then there is what is right. And in this case it is a "cluster f*ck."

It is a story of you killed my children, (1,000 years ago) so I am going to kill your children, (1,000 years ago.) So then the most recently violated of the 2 goes back and kills the other side, then back, then back.

Who cares anymore all I can say is im glad I don't live in Israel or any of those Arab countries.

[Pasha]

Hello Ben Chug,

I'm going to contest the assertion that the Jews and Arabs have been enemies for thousands of years and therefore nothing can be done about it. All the nations involved there have complex histories as well as socio-political make ups, and we should pause before generalising. Israel itself is so politically divided on most issues that an Israeli friend once joked to me that if the arab threat disappeared Israel would split apart.

Israel has been traditionally regarded by many (Jews and Gentlies) as the Biblical home of the 'Jewish people' and according to the Old Testament was promised to Jews by God. There were actually two Jewish kingdoms in antiquity that were annexed by the Romans.

The Romans first intervened as peacekeeping force between Selucid Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Ptolemaic Egypt but were dragged in further due to the Middle East's growing importance to it's trade routes and the threat to it's empire from the Parthians in the east. After the great rebellion of 66 AD, Rome sacked most of Judea's cities and sold thousands of her inhabitants into slavery. Hence began the Jewish diaspora.

The land that is now Israel and Palestine changed ownership a number of times since then but most notably was a part of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire. The Turks ruled it as part of their Syrian province and if you ever enter Syria from Lebanon you will notice the map in the custom house outlines the old Greater Syria which includes Lebanon, Israel, Palestine and a good slice of Jordan - and explains some of the Damascene mentality.

A large Jewish population thrived in Palestine and like many minorities in the province (Druze, Maronites etc.) preferred generally the status quo to an independant arab run Palestine where they would in a less favourable position.

In the 1890s the Zionist movement founded by Chaim Weizmann began in Europey as a political movement for the establishment and support of a Jewish homeland and encouraged Jewish migration to Palestine. In 1917 Palestine had been wrested from the Turks by the Allied forces along with other provinces of the Ottoman Empire. In the treaties that followed WWI the colonial possesions of the defeated Central Powers were divided into 3 different classes: A Mandate, B Mandate and C Mandate. A mandate countries were judged ready for self rule e.g. Yugoslavia (go figure), C mandates were judged unsuitable for self rule in the forseeable future and were to be governed directly by an Allied power, e.g. German Süd-West Afrika became British run South West Africa finally to become independent about ten years ago as Namibia.

This left B mandates like Palestine, Lebanon, Trans-Jordan and others. B Mandates were judged to be capable of self rule after a period of assistance and 'benevolant governance' by an Allied power. So the French got Lebanon and Syria, and we got Palestine and Jordan. Before the war had even finished though the British Government signed a document called the Balfour Declaration which gave tacit support for the cause of a Jewish homeland. After the Allied victory many Zionists expected to see an immediate Jewish homeland and were disappointed with the inaction of the British.

Similarly the Arabs who had fought with the Allies on the understanding that they would be gaining their independence felt cheated that not only had they only gained another colonial master but that an entirely new country had been promised to the Jews while arabs still constituted 97% of the popoulation of Palestine.

This being said, everyday relations between Jews and Arabs in Palestine as elsewhere in the Middle East, was an easygoing tolerant one. The 'ancient hatreds' you here so much about on CNN are in fact quite a modern political construct, and indicates nothing beyond the journalist's lack of in depth knowledge.

There were though a number of communal riots in the larger cities during the interwar years mostly stemming from Arab political contention with the increasing Jewish immigration from Europe. The British managed to please no one by their tactic of turning the influx on and off again to appease who ever was shouting loudest at the time.

When WWII came, violence toward the British increased from both sides. Despite many Palestinian Jews fighting in the British Army's Jewish Brigade, two Jewish terrorist organisations the Irgun (led by future Israeli PM Menachim Begin) and the Stern Gang (whose ranks included another PM Yitzak Shamir) iniated a low intenisity conflict against the British. They even went so far as to meet with Axis politicians (mostly Italian Fascists) regardless of their murderous anti-semitism, the rationale being that the Brits were the main obstacle to a Jewish State and my enemy's enemy is my friend and also that the persecution in Europe would lead to further migration to Palestine.

The Arabs for their part openly served on both sides during the war and for the most seemed entirely mercenary in their motivation. The most most famous exception to this is the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who got Himmler's backing to raise the Freies Arabisches Korp and toured the Balkans on a recruiting drive.

After the war all attention and hostilities by both sides turned squarely on the British whose Palestine policy was in ruins. With the release of inmates from Hitler's concentration camps about 100,000 Jews actively sought refuge in Palestine making a mockery of British assurances to the Arabs that there would be an end to unlimited immigration.

The Stern Gang and Irgun were now joined by the Hagganah (Jewish dense force that had aided the Brits in WWII and were to become the Israeli Defense Force) who struck against British military installations and troops. The two terrorist groups continued to wage an indiscriminate campaign as well, the worst atrocity being the bombing by Irgun of the King David hotel with loss of 91 lives. The British Government, who had enough on their plate at the time handed the entire matter over to the newly formed UN and proceeded to disengage from the region.

The UN proposed a partition scheme, the British cabinet however saw the scheme as unfair to the Arabs and impossible to impose except by the overwhelming use of force, which it was neither willing nor able to employ. So the British announced a departure date, 15 May 1948. They ran down their manpower, emptied the offices, put the keys under the mat, and amongst growing Arab-Jewish violence, kept their heads down and left.

The UN endorsed the partition and almost immediately a full blown war started with the Jewish forces of the Hagganah fighting against the various Palestinian militias (negligible) and a number of Arab armies in turn, the most serious of which was Jordan's British officiered Arab Legion led by Glubb Pasha (no relation that I know of).

The Jews won pretty decisively and expanded upon their original allotment which was consolidated as the State of Israel. During the war massacres of Arab villages by the Israelis, most notably at Deir Yassin, and more significantly the news of them caused wide spread panic in many Palestinian Arabs who fled to what is now called the West Bank and Gaza at that time annexed by Jordan and Egypt repectively.

In 1967 (it has since been discovered after much stirring by the Soviets) Egypt, Jordan and Syria massed their forces on their borders with Israel. Israel claiming that it was under threat struck first and one by one knocked out the opposition forces starting with Egypt then Jordan and finally Syria.

During these campaigns (the entire affair lasted six days) Israel captured the entire Sinai peninsular and the Gaza strip from Egypt, the West Bank from Jordan and the Golan Heights from Syria. With the 1978 Camp David Agreement Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt in exchange for a peace treaty. The Golan heights has been held by the Israelis who claim that their security would be threatened if it were handed back without a peace agreement from Syria and demilitarisation of a swathe of Syrian territory. The Syrians want their land back first before they settle an agreement.

The West Bank and Gaza strip were a traditional part of Palestine and neither Jordan nor Egypt lay claim to them. They are considered by many internationally and in Israel and Palestine as the basis for an independent Palestinian state. Most Palestinians live in fairly impoverished conditions, and life under Israeli rule can be in turns humiliating and dangerous.

This has led to generations of violence. Initially Palestinian groups aimed to recover the entire land and "drive the Israelis into the sea." but time and fair weathered Arab support has brought most of the Palestinians to the realisation that despite their historical grievance the Israelis are not going anywhere and that an accomodation should be reached.

This of course is easier said than done. Over the years religious and commercial Israeli settlements have mushroomed in the occupied territories drawing precious resources, especially water, and land from Palestinian villages. Olive groves (the sole source of income for many) have been razed on the whim of an Israeli officer on the word of a settler that a shot might have come from it's direction.

This combined with other heavy handed measures such as collectively punishing entire neighbourhoods for the actions of a suicide bomber has led to deep bitterness and antagonism towards the Israelis.

The Israelis have also been suffering under a steady stream of bombings and other indiscriminate attacks by Palestinian terrorists. Nothing Israel has done so far has managed to staunch this and indeed every retaliation by them seems to sow the dragon's teeth.

The ''answer' many would say is for the Israelis to do for Palestinians what the Brits did for them: call it a day and pull out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. While Israeli politicians have come to realise that a Palestinian state is inevitable (just as the Palestinians have about recognising Israel), the Devil is in the details.

Palestinians say that the sort of state the Israelis are offering is a semi autonomous region with no economic independence of foreign affairs and military capacity; entirely reliant on Israel to survive and a resource for cheap labour for Israelis. Israelis say that they risk their very existence
and and their security is paramount.

There is really much more to all this but I have tried to keep it brief(ish) and neutral as possible. The middle east has a habit of making the bitterest enemies from the the most congenial of friends.

Hope any of this has helped. Best regards!

Pasha

p.s. try reading 'The Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs" based on the BBC tv series by Ahron Bregman and Jihan El-Tahri ISBN 0140268278.

Short, concise, plainly written and well researched.

[Contractor]

Great article Pasha, 20 odd paragraphs and I am now much wiser to the background of the present day conflict. Thank you.

[Jon]

Israel was created on Palestinian ground. Palestine wants it back. West supports israel, but sympthises with Palestinians.

As long as Israel exists, there will always be attacks by Palestinians. As long as palestinians attack, there will always be Israeli reprisals. Its just one large loop that will go on and on until either Israel is destroyed or a peace process is put in place. The latter looks the least likely.

America will not stop supporting Israel simply because of the number of Jewish people and Israelis living in America - too much voting power to loose.

Lets not forget that Israel is still technically at war with Lebonan, Syria and Egypt.

UN forces need to be sent in, as done in Liberia, Cyprus and the former Yugoslavia.

[Whitey]

The Malaysian PM proved by his recant of his statements the power of the son's of lithe.

I guess there isn't an easy answer. England was losing WW1 and made a deal with the finacial controlling Jews (Lord Rothchild) to finacially ruin the krauts and get America into the war, thus turning the tide. The UK shook hands with the devil and won the war, but when it came time to help Israel become a nation the UK realized how unreasonable its bedfellow had become and left after WW2, then in steps the USA. Trumans diary expresses his frustration dealing with the Jews in Israel. The Arads and America had good relations up until we got involved in the 6 day war, where American pilots were rumored to have flown sorties under the guise of the IDF. The battle plan was made in the USA, and like Pesha said the treaty in 1978 sealed the fate among its previous allies in the arabias.

I still say that the jews need a place to live and jerusalem seems to have been their home for the most part of history, but it ain't big enough for all of them. Funny thing is about all this is the Wegner contenintal drift theory. In a million years the middle east will physically collied with Africa and the US will rift in the middle and the land mass of earth will be changed. Why get attatched to something so temporary.

Really though, I wouldn't live where I wasn't wanted. Obviously my family left England at one time because they must of felt slighted, I'd have no intention on returning other than for a tour of the museums someday. I don't mean that disrespectfully, just looking at the Jewish problem another way.

[kwew]

i dont think its going to end anytime soon, but one good thing is we all know the israeli's will never use there nuclear capabilities because as an israeli friend of my dad said "no good jewish boy is going to waste millions of dollars on an arab" and i think if i remember correctly hes ex-mosad (i think dont quote me).

[voodoo sprout]

This problem I do find very annoying as there is almost a complete lack of decnt information. Just about everything I've found about this is propoganda one way or the other, for instance I ahven't been able to find a single source of maps showing the initial borders of Israel and those after the 1948 war, This site has some but it's still not clear.

It seems to be the case that bascially, the West Bank and Gaza strip Were part of Israel when it was formed but ceded to Egypt and Jordan after the war, and so when Israel invaded during 1967 is was esentially recovering them, also meaning Palestine ceased to exist in 1948, until a degree of slef autonomy was granted in the alte 90's. As I said though I haven't foudn a single officla source which amkes this clear, and Pasha's post implies the West Bank and Gaza strip were part of the Arab countries from the word go?

In any case I think neither side is going to back down. The Palestinians have degenerated to the point where terrorism simply cannot be contained or removed; if Israel had instigated a full military occupation at the start of the intefada then they might have got somewhere (legally or not) and managed to enforce peace long enough for the Palestinians to get some sort of government together (not counting Arafat, but a more democratic affair as is being worked towads now). But now resistance would be far to great, and the effect on international affairs equally so.

And Israel meanwhile seems to be driven by a combination of arrogance and desperation, they feel they have given peace a chance and it simply did not work, and so they have no other option but to use military force. In most countries these actions woud be limited in order to maintain good relations with the internatinal political and trade community, but Israel has such extensive support from the US and therefore the UN (given that the UN can't do anyhign agaisnt Israel without the US), it feels there is nothing to stop it.

The only possible solution I can see is the UN, it wouldn't be able to stop violence by force but it shoudl provide the Palestinians with a sense of progress and protection which should limit terrorist attacks, and hopeful maintain a stable environment in which to get the Palestinian government up and running. Israel should then have jmore chance of long term security plus the added advantage of reducing the strain on it's military (and relevant budget). The first step though has to be from the US in applying proper pressure on Israel, it is the only thing which can really bring them to dipolomacy while terrorism continues to foster hardline views domestically within Israel.

[Whitey]

Okay I was holding back, I can solve this Middle East shit easy.
First the western world needs to land their combined militaries throughout the region. Tear up a bunch of stuff while they are at it. Then we get some factories going over there and force people to work, then we open up fast food joints, beer joints, liquoir stores. Start some novelty stores that sell dirty magazines, then throw up some super wal-marts, car lots and casino's and then give them credit cards so they get in debt. Keep the armies stationed in the area like we did in Germany so the soldiers and local women marry, have kids and loose their culture through generations of pizza, video games and addiction to smokes and alcohol.

Yep put the internet in every raghead mud hut, and those poor shits will be so distracted in 3 generations they'd forget they ever fought each other. Force the Jews and muslims to intergrate culture,values and traditions. Encourage interculture marriages among them, force them to go to school together, outlaw private weapons so resistance would be futile and constantly release historically inaccurate movies for them to watch and replace their religion with materialistic lust.
Thats how we do it in America, can't see why it wouldn't work there. :smilecolros: Fuggin multiculturalism, tollerance and diversity would go good for the region, hell the jews invented that concept, maybe they could use it to solve their problems.

[Marina]

Pasha, your review was very educational, thanks.
Mike….I agree with your sentiments entirely. I have a German friend whose family also suffered during WW2 (and her family were actually anti-nazi) and she said that why should she be made to feel guilty all the time for the mistakes of the forefathers for the holocaust tragedy. There were many non-jews who also died during the holocaust.

I just feel that the ongoing conflict in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories has been a lingering sore point among arab and moslem countries. The fate of the holy city of Jerusalem (which is sacred to christians and moslems as well) is also a sensitive issue. (It’s a shame Jerusalem cannot be given special international status like the Vatican).

My sentiment is that this conflict may have been a precursor for the foundation of these extremist anti-western islamic groups which in turn may have unconsciously led to the tragic 9/11 incident. Maybe that is why the American Armed Forces are having such a hard time in sustaining law and order in Iraq and Afghanistan too. America has an extremely bad image even among the western educated secular moslems around the world. So anything America proposes (even in a positive way) is perceived with suspicion.
America is paying a very heavy price for its moral and military support for an egocentric Israel. The Palestinians have become a frustrated and volatile people because of their dire situation. They need to have their own unique identity and country (they are not Lebanese, Jordanian or Syrian). I also feel the rest of the arab and moslem world have failed to help the Palestinian people as well.
As for the UN solving this problem, they have been trying to do it for years but without the America it is difficult. If there is one neutral country in the world who can act as an honest broker to the Israelis and the Palestinians, it would be constructive.


Whitey,
As for multicultural integration, The Israeli government have passed a law that an Israeli married to a Palestinian are not allowed to live together.

[Frank S.]

I have a question: who controls water sources in the region?
I realize the formulation of the question is somewhat naive as there are many ways to define control, but...
The reason I ask is that I overheard a radio journalist at a party maybe 10-11 years ago, talking of Palestinian women walking around with stones in their mouth to generate enough saliva to hydrate the baby they carried in their arms in the occupied territories.

Also because water is fast becoming a precious commodity around the world.

BTW, Pasha: your post answered many of my own questions and blind spots.

[Pasha]

Hello Frank,

Your question regarding water sources is a topical one. Irrigation by various Israeli settlements have diverted water sources that were traditionally used by Palestinian villagers not only for their own hydration but also as a means of sustaining their only source of income, their orchards. "Making the desert bloom" is a common Kibutznik catchcry, but the lush gardens and swimming pools that are a common feature of these settlements, are only one side of the coin. Needless to say this state of affairs has been the source of much Palestinian grievance.

This is not an issue limited to Israel and Palestine either. Throughout the region nations have traded bullets over water rights issues, and this looks like it will become an increasingly dominant issue.
Best regards!

Pasha