SO19

[Phil1]

Could someone offer a theoretical assessment or good resources on how a police unit such as SO19 would fare in a combat situation?

How do their CT capabilities vary from those of the SAS?

Why is an elite police unit not set up to deal with domestic hostage rescue operations in a similar way to the French and Americans?

When would SO19 be deployed as the primary hostage rescue unit?

How does the weaponry (sniper rifles etc) used by SO19 differ from that of the SAS CT units and why does it vary?

How do their entry techniques vary?

How well would SO19 acquit itself in an exercise, storming or defending a named target against equal numbers of SAS?

How long would they last in a non-urban theatre of war?

Do the two units (SO19 and SAS) ever interact? How do they regard each other?

[lew]

When on my two week res there was a copper the (DS) I think, who said that S019 was trained by SAS on CT and entry techniques, this maybe completely wrong though as this is just hear say from him to us...


Can anyone verify this???


lew

[voodoo sprout]

Going from an ex SO19 bloke (I can't say for certain he's genuine, but I'm pretty sure he is), SO 19 is more proficient in conventional counter terrorism than SF, by virtue of the fact that they have vastly more experience and train for little else, while SF mix it in among various other roles. In terms of equipment they are pretty much the same (logical given the similar requirements), SO19 having access to more varied equipment than the average armed policeman. They do supposedly have more specialised stuff than the SAS, for instance modified landrovers, but that could be out of date, they might share them etc. And I don't who would be used for various jobs, I expect SO19 would be more likely if only because it would be politically safer for the government .

[Aldo]

I think I heard somewhere that SO19 have been disbanded. Any truth to this?

[Blue Streak]

I am slightly in the know. SO19 have not been disbandened and are the MET's armed response department. There main roles being ARV work responding to firearms incidents and offering a rapid intervention capability. They are good at what they do by the mere fact that they are used on a regular basis. An SO19 ARV can expect to spend its whole shift dealing with firearms incidents, where as a home counties force crew may deal with just one firearms job a week.
I know my force had done exercises with the SAS and SO19 will be no different. All Police firearms training is 'in house' and the MET in particular have a multi million pound firearms training venue.
Most Police officers will admit who have worked with the SAS that special forces are on another level in terms of both skill and fitness and any comparison would be futile.
Many Police Firearms teams are under subscribed and thus standards have fallen. Many officers do not want the responsibilty that comes with the job quite understandibly. In terms of fitness a basis AFO in the Police only has to get just over 9 on the bleep test and 10.1 for rapid intervention. By any standard a low level of fitness and many officers struggle with this although there are exceptions and some officers are very fit.
I would suggest even an SAS trooper who had not been on the CT team would be in a different league to a Police Officer. These officers only requalify four times a year and probably shoot less rounds a year than the average SAS trooper in any trade does in a week.

[joe]

I was going to mention the "rounds-per-week" stat. It is said that a solider in the Regiment, who is assigned to the Special Projects team, will fire somewhere in the region of 7000 round per week. I just can't believe that the Police have the budget to be anywhere near this figure.

To answer the original question, "Who is more highly trained and proficient in the use of firearms?", it's surely got to be the Regiment. Remember these are the guys that practically invented hostage rescue - and a major part of that is expertise with firearms. And there is no doubt they are still considered a world leader in this field.

How do their CT capabilities vary from those of the SAS?

I understand that the role of the armed police in a hostage rescue / terrorist situation is primarily outer cordon security and maybe sniper cover. Obviously there is a massive involvement from the police in other areas though, such as negotiation.

Why is an elite police unit not set up to deal with domestic hostage rescue operations in a similar way to the French and Americans?

I don't know about the French so can't comment. The reason the Yanks have civilian units is that they have very strict laws which govern when the military can be deployed against U.S. citizens. I believe the law is called posse comitatus. This act has strict rules about when military units can be deployed. This is the reason the Yanks have the FBI HRT team (there were rumours about Delta being deployed - not as assaulters - in Waco. This caused a controvesy because of posse comitatus).

I would guess that the reason no civilian unit is setup to take on the role of domestic UK hostage rescue is because the SAS/SBS are already ideal. These guys are highly motivated, highly trained, well funded and proven leaders in this field. You need a special kind of person to be able to pull-off hostage rescue / CT jobs; the kind of people that have already been selected by the Army and Marines. Why replace them with a civilian organisation, that will need to select and train to the same standard?

When would SO19 be deployed as the primary hostage rescue unit?

I'm not aware that it is. Certainly for any terrorist hostage taking event the Regiment would be deployed. Even for a non-politically motivated hostage taking event, I would imagine the Regiment would send a team.

How does the weaponry (sniper rifles etc) used by SO19 differ from that of the SAS CT units and why does it vary?

I would imagine pretty similar. The Regiment is bound to be better funded of course, so will be able to evaulate many more different weapons. And we mustn't forget that the Regiment and Police Forces regulary train together, so there is bound to be knowledge sharing, and that would include any findings each party may have about weapons.

I remember reading an article in the paper a few years ago about why the police were now armed with G36 HK assault rifles; a rise in the use of powerful weapons by criminals apparently. You still see a lot of MP-5's around of course.

Different job, different tools. I dare say that if the Regiment were to deal with another "embassy" job on UK soil, we'd see MP-5's still. If they had to fast rope in to some hell-hole in the Middle East, and potentially have to hold ground whilst an extraction force comes to pick-em ups, they'd be using M-4's cos of the range and their short barrel (good for long range and CQB).

Just my two penneth,
joe - not an "expert", nor claiming to be!

[Deniable_Operative]

As far as i am aware, they use MP5s Sig-Hauer P226s for close range, and snipers either use a Colt AR15, or an L115A if they can get hold of any.

I might be wrong on the Colt, let me know.

[Deniable_Operative]

Heckler & Koch MP5 - sub machine gun.

Sig-Sauer P226 - hangdun

(ok, mis-spelt in my original post, what is this? a spelling test!)

[adj125]

(ok, mis-spelt in my original post, what is this? a spelling test!)

Your lucky it's not a walter test

[BenChug]

Damn the nations, what did he say which gave up the jigg?

[Sisyphus]

I was going to mention the "rounds-per-week" stat. It is said that a solider in the Regiment, who is assigned to the Special Projects team, will fire somewhere in the region of 7000 round per week.

'It is said' by whom? The word 'hyperbole' comes to mind.

[joe]

I was going to mention the "rounds-per-week" stat. It is said that a solider in the Regiment, who is assigned to the Special Projects team, will fire somewhere in the region of 7000 round per week.

'It is said' by whom? The word 'hyperbole' comes to mind.

Hardly. I think I read that particular statistic in one of Tony Geraghty books, who obviously has some kind of (unofficial?) relationship with the Regiment, considering the information he seems to have access to. It may also be mentioned in one of DLB's books, although I'm not sure on that one.

More to the point, however, these kinds of figures (thousands per week) are commonly found in the available literature about counter-terror units (not just the Regiment). Hell, even I used to fire off a few hundred rounds a week when shooting was still legal in the UK. So I don't think a figure of 7000 is inflated, as you suggest. At least, not if they're as proficient as we're lead to believe.

Joe

[Sisyphus]

[Hardly. I think I read that particular statistic in one of Tony Geraghty books, who obviously has some kind of (unofficial?) relationship with the Regiment, considering the information he seems to have access to.
Joe

Oh, Tony Geraghty? Right. Must be true then!

What on earth does firing 7000 rounds a week in training achieve? Those of us who were 'marksmen' could hit the target when we pointed our weapons in the right direction. Not sure how much trg would have been needed to achieve 100% hits on every occasion. Actually, probably an impossibility.

I just struggle with the concept of guys firing 7000 rounds to improve 'something'. If you hit the 'bull' at, say, 1000yds (or in close combat/close quarter scenarios) 20 times out of 20 why would you want to fire another 6,980 rounds?

[Aldo]

hehehe

Sisyphus, guess your not going to give him a break. He's obviously using the statistic to show that the SAS do more training and though it would have helped if he'd said that I have a sneaking suspician you kind of knew what he was trying to say. Though it's a good question that if you can hit teh bull 20 out 20 why bother firing anymore rounds, do you really need the practice? I would say yes.

[joe]

Sisyphus,

I don't profess to be an expert and I've not served in the regular military either, so my knowledge on this subject is limited to what I can research through the public domain. Unlike our security services (apparently), I don't take "single-source" information as gospel, so whether Geraghty is correct or not is by-the-by. These kind of figures are available for other counter-terror units, as I mentioned. If you're that bothered I'll find the references and post links/page nos. etc, as you do seem to have a bee in your bonnet about this for some reason.

The answer to your question is, I suppose, "practise makes perfect". I'm sure as hell that David Beckham doesn't stop once he's got 20 out of 20 free kicks perfectly into the goal during his training sessions.