Do you still agree with the 2nd Iraq conflict....?

[MickElton]

All,

Would welcome your response to to the debate as to whether you think the '2nd Gulf War' was justified and necessary?

My personal feeling (as someone who served in the conflict, albeit within the saftey zone of the ARK ROYAL innards!) is that it was in no way just or right to persecute a war on a leader who in many respects is a saint compared to many of his 'dictator' peers who govern other countries.

Having taken the Queen's shilling for 13 years, I, along with a good deal of my comrades was hardly likely to leg it when the call came, but I went into this conflict with my eyes open; firmly fixed I have to say on the job of putting food in my families mouths, not fighting Tony B's 'just and morally right war'. I didn't think it was either; I consider myself a mercenary, although mercenaries get better pay.

At no time did I take NAPs or consider the NBCD threat to myself or the rest of the TG credible or real. That said, if I had been a Royal in the thick of it, I probably would have thought twice. No. The Downing Street propaganda machine did not convince me that Saddam had a lorry load of VX nerve gas - if they had had the evidence they would have wasted no time in producing it all over the 6 o'clock news.

As is, I feel we have lost a lot of good people and spent an awful lot of taxpayers money on a 'revenge' thing for the incompetent yanks who, not being able to find Osama, attacked an easeir target, that of Iraq. I always wanted to be tested professionally at least once in my RN career; I am left with a bitter taste in the mouth after this one - roll on my 9.

[Tab]

Yes I still agree with it, for one it got rid of a tyrant, also it gave our troops a chance to test their skills on the Battlefield, but it could turn out to be a poison chalice if the Muslin Fundamentalist take over, then we have another Taliban but even closer to home.

[Andy O'Pray]

Hi MickElton,

Where are the WMD's? Why are the Iraqi people demonstrating against the US occupation. Is the US really committed to the road map for peace in the Middle East? What has been achieved in Afghanistan? Why is the US administration threatening those countries that did not support their actions?

Sure, they have gotten rid of an evil dictator and his regime. I will not list them all as it would take all day, but the world is full of evil dictators. The main difference is that their countries don't have oil reserves, or are to powerful to take on. I do believe that Blair committed British forces to this campaign in the belief that the US administration would force Israel into peace negotiations with their Arab neighbours, with whom they have no such treaty. I think that Blair believed that the UN would play a larger part in the rebuilding of Iraq.

I did not agree initially with the UK's involvement in this campaign, as I doubted it's credibility, however, once British forces were committed, I had to throw my support behind them. I am so sorry that some of them were killed or maimed in supporting corporate America.

To quote US Senator Kennedy. "This is the wrong war, at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons".

I am glad that my adopted country, Canada, decided to stay out of this one, not that we could have contributed very much. The US is now showing us their displeasure at our non compliance. What was that about democracy?

Anyway MickElton, well done and I am glad to see you home safely.

Aye - Andy

[Guest]

Good post Mick, especially for someone still serving.

I personally think that El Tone went along for the ride on the back of Dubya. We all know it wasn't to rid the world of an evil dictator or WMD's, it is something much more deeply rooted than that.

Oil springs to mind especially since Saddam was using Euro's in an exchange rate rather than US$, it was a soft target, there are more despots in the world too, but nothing is done about that little posse of gangsters...........you see no oil!

To kick start an economy you have to get the wheels of industry turning again, 12 years since GW1 now the US need to get the likes of Halliburton into the oil fields, the infrastructure rebuilt the oil flowing again and eh everything is looking rosy again for the US treasury.

[may18]

complicated question

ill bore you all with a complicated answer later, but now is time for my hubby

[El Prez]

Mick is stating what he and the rest of us were saying prior to the conflict. his membership of the forces does not preclude him from having, and stating an opinion.

Good post Mick, especially for someone still serving

Or were you trying to tell us he's thick Spanners?

Maybe I'm still knackered after Okehampton.

[Guest]

I appreciate things have changed a lot since my time in the mob, Mick Elton is his real name and not a pseudonym I presume and in my opinion a good post in having the boldness of his statements, go on to the PPRuNe website and many serving members are using all but their own name.

Why El Prez are you trying to make that statement saying "he's thick" what presumption do you have for that statement?

It was an innocuous remark from myself and not meant to do anyone any harm!

[Sully]

Mick,

I couldn't agree more with you mate. As El Prez said, a lot of us had misgivings and downright objections - me especially. Blair tried to win public support over here by implying that if you thought the war was unjustified (in other words if you didn't support him in his bizarre crusade) then you didn't support the troops. I started to feel that I might be a bit disloyal myself - especially when a good mate was killed out there. At the end of the day my mate died doing a job that he loved and doing his duty - to me the whys and wherefores are irrelevant so I won't be saying that he died for nothing, nor that he died to make the world a better place.

As for

it gave our troops a chance to test their skills on the Battlefield

I can't believe that someone would write such bollocks. What an evil thing to say.

Now its all over the true intentions of the US regime are clearer than ever. Still, it gave some of the contributors on here something interesting to watch on the telly.

Aye

Sully

[may18]

First off, im terribly sorry to hear about your friend.

Regarding blair, your right about his manipulation of peoples minds to get support. Support before he told us we should @support the troops@ was 33%. At the start of the war, it was 68%.

I subconsiously changed position myself, i remember in the lead up to the war, listening to a presidential speech by bush and saying to my husband, this man is one of the most dangerous to world peace in recent history.

A few weeks later, with @support the troops@ ingrained, i was justifying blairs decision in my mind..stupid really. Wanting them home safe doesnt mean thining the reason they were sent is justified.

Now its all over, well the people in iraq, millions of them will have a better future. But the reason given by blair...WMD just never materialised. Making you wonder if he lied from the start

[gash-hand]

Making you wonder if he lied from the start

What a politician lying? Are you sure?

[CanadianHighlandFusilier]

I wish Yanks do a better job of cleaning up the mess and helping out the civvies in those countries.
Taliban may be out of power in Afghanistan, but ISAF guys are still taking hits from Taliban. Karzai looks like he's got no power and country is under warlords.
Looks like right now Iraq is in no better shape, with not much coming out in terms of help from the Yanks.

I don't know if it's just cost saving measure or the Yanks wants Afghanis and Iraqis to solve their own problem, but in the long term, the general populace of those countries may get a better reason to hold a grievance against the Yanks, and combine that with Islamic fundamentalism, and you get more silly teens who want to join the jihad against the Great Satan.

Mind you, I do think Saddam and his cronies need to go, just like all nutty crackpot dictators all over the world.

Always the question of what is the lesser evil...

[Cobalt]

Anyone see Rory Bremner's Beyond Iraq and a Hard Place a couple of weeks ago? Summed it all up perfectly.

[El Prez]

Rory Bremner hit it all smack on the head.
Spanners, I used the smiley to indicate I thought it was an amusing turn of phrase.

Or were you trying to tell us he's thick Spanners?

Maybe I'm still knackered after Okehampton.

I certainly was knackered!

[Midshipman786]

have u people heard the news over the last few days? a senior intel source says the WMD dossier was a load of bollocks hyped up by Downing Street spin doctors. The Govt now admits that the claim that Saddam had WMD ready to use in 45mins came from a single uncorroborated source (add that to the other plagiarised dossier an the fake uranium documents )

most damning of all the US Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said a few days ago in an interview with Vanity Fair that another big reason for the war was that ousting Saddam Hussein would allow the United States to take its troops out of Saudi Arabia! and heres me thinking that was just a silly conspiracy theory!

we have been fed a load of bullsh*t and its making me MAD

Tony Blair the devout Christian following his moral conscience eh? what a bloody joke...would he swear it on the Bible then? no chance! the lying little twerp....

[US Marine]

As is, I feel we have lost a lot of good people and spent an awful lot of taxpayers money on a 'revenge' thing for the incompetent yanks who, not being able to find Osama, attacked an easeir target, that of Iraq. I always wanted to be tested professionally at least once in my RN career; I am left with a bitter taste in the mouth after this one - roll on my 9.

[/quote]

first off sir, let me thank you for your service. As you can see I am a former U.S. Marine. I as a "yank" sincerely apperciate your service to your country and the cause. I see that you feel your fighting as a merc. That must make it diffacult for you. I do however disagree with you. Not about your feelings, because after all they are yours. But about the reason for them. First off, I think history has proved that just ducking your head in the sand when an agressive dictator is in power is not going to work. Look at PM Chamberlin. As far as this being a "yank" war, I believe alot of my countrymen said that during World War 2. They felt we should stay out of the war in Europe. After all the Japanese attacked us not the Germans. But as ALLIES, and friends we joined the fight. I know I've been on this kick before about bashing us "yanks" and I won't ask or go into it again (Andy ) I got a few PM's from royal marines explaining to me how some people are gonna bitch and cry no matter what you do, and if it wasn't about us yanks it would be something else. And I am not at all saying that you are crying. I guess that you don't feel that this war on terrorism affects you as much. And that is your right and opinion. I sincerely hope that your government and majority of your people don't feel so much hatred tword us yanks. I have said it before that I feel that we are the closest of allies in the world. If you need help we will help, and if we need help you help.

Now onto the incompetent yanks who cant find Osoma. Well Sir where is he??? Obviously you don't know either. How long has the IRA been around? I'm not trying to bust your balls over this, I'm merely pointing out the fact that its not that easy to find one man in the entire world. You need HUMINT. These groups are very hard to penetrate by agents, and its also very hard to turn one of their own because of their fanaticism.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not mad... I am a U.S. Marine, so it does get my blood up a bit when our friends seem to hate us. But I've been told to not take it personally, so I won't. But one question. What ever happened to that famous stiff upper lip?

I hope that you have a safe passage and may god watch over you, your family and crew where ever you may be.